NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

I believe that is what NC was implying. She was pointing out that the only person of whom it was demanded to keep this confidential was Sandie, because the rest of them were showing it around to anyone and everyone. Absolutely no confidentiality being shown towards Sandie 🤦‍♀️

Plus it’s a way of Upton garnering sympathy and support whilst Sandie gets warned not to speak to anyone about the situation…she therefore gets more isolated and no one knows her version of events.

I'm sorry I'm desperately trying to catch up. I can't quite understand the abbreviations, what happened here?

After the Datix filing, Sandie was suspended and there was to be an investigation. Sandie was supposed to have been told that she had to keep her suspension confidential (but she wasn't told until much later on).

In the meantime, Kate Searle had emailed all the A&E Drs to tell them about Peggie's suspension for hurty words. Upton then sent his statement of what happened to all these Drs plus the person selected to do the "investigation that didn't happen".

Therefore confidentiality was breached very early on in Jan '24, months before they got their collective underwear in a twist that the press had got wind of the suspension in July.

That title reads like they drafted 2 articles, one swinging either way, and someone's sausage fingers slipped and submitted the wrong one.

I'm pretty sure I've got this mostly right, please someone correct me if I've got bits wrong!

Naomi said that Dr Upton replied to an email with his statement, copying in all people CC'd in the email chain including the person investigating (think that was either ED or AS depending on the date), and Sandie Peggie.

In this email CC'd to everyone, their grandmother and their dog, Dr Upton is asking if he needs to make changes to his statement.

Naomi states to Gillian Malone that confidentiality and integrity have been hopelessly compromised.

Gillian Malone agrees it shouldn't have been done in this way.

@Cassoppy Considering that even as a senior nurse she is ultimately very low down in the hierarchy of all of the players in this (males, doctors, band 7s...)

While I agree with you about her being lower in the hierarchy than males and doctors, I just wanted to point out that as head of nursing she will be a band 8
I also still think there is no excuse for such incompetence. The risk assessment is nowhere to be seen and it appears it was completed AFTER the decision to suspend. The suspension was nothing to do with serious concerns about patient care because those allegations weren't even raised until months later.
I think they are lying. I think this because I've seen it all before.

In Greek mythology, Niobe was a queen of Thebes, daughter of Tantalus, and wife of Amphion. She is best known for her tragic story involving the death of her children and her transformation into a weeping stone

From TT:
GM No, don't think DU did harass. Unprofessional behaviour on part of SP.
J Dr Pitt tomorrow and Louise Curran.
J Do we need to call [missed] just to say we have taken his evidence - their evidence I should say to be more accurate.
J Normal time tomorrow.

And she can't garner support from other women who feel the same way and might join a collective grievance.

What strikes me is GM showed no understanding of how SP might feel about DrU being in the changing room.

NCs questions about Pete and GMs responses showed a complete disconnect in her thinking.

Final TT's Tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1945853426648187209.html

I really don't get this idea of TRAs saying that they don't know what sex they are because they haven't tested their chromosomes. They must know that a test of Upton's chromosomes would show he is male, which doesn't fit their argument. If chromosomes determine sex (which they do for everyone apart from the small minority with DSD), their fantasy fails.

Yep that's right

Did they tell DU to keep the events and investigation confidential? I don't recall that being asked. If not, why not?

It also very clearly demonstrates the favoritism shown to Upton from the start, in the process. He was never disciplined or even admonished for breaching Peggie's confidentiality, he was permitted to discuss it openly with the whole consultant team basically. She was restricted from even discussing with her direct colleagues what was going on. It seems clear that from the start the management team saw this as entirely one sided, with Peggie on the wrong side.

And...it seems like Upton wanted to share all his claims to get as many doctors and managers on side but it's backfired. Oopsie.

From TT

JR Interaction between DU and SP - process started with Dati x. What do you think c incident. Did DU sexually harassed SP on that occasion.
GM No, don't think DU did harass. Unprofessional behaviour on part of SP.

I cannot believe GM called SPs behaviour in the changing room unprofessional.

Or a career in the Scottish government?

Yes, and the implication that Sandie wouldn't be allowed to drum up any support for her side of the issue, because she wasn't allowed to talk about it.

She couldn't ask any other women if they felt the same.

I mean that whole side of it is absolutely disgusting.

Did anyone else complain? No. What happens when you do complain?

You get lied about, your entire career and integrity is called into question, you're the subject of a disciplinary with the threat of being sacked due to gross misconduct, you're suspended and you have to go to an employment tribunal lasting months.

The ridiculous thing, amongst many, is that the consultants he emailed etc hadn't been in the room so how could they tell him if it needed changing? The only person who was, was Sandie.

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

😂😂😂😂😂

fat fingers and already edited post

This is a form of intimidation. Upton should have been hauled over the coals for it REGARDLESS of the merits of the complaint. It's a disciplinary in its own right.

Those emailed by Dr U included the person in charge of the i/x and several others who would be likely to be called as witnesses.

end of thread