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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

OP posts:
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nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:40

Note this from the header:

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

OP posts:
Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 15:43

Placemarking for tomorrow.

ickky · 11/02/2025 15:43

Just wanted to say thank you nauticant for all your excellent thread management. I know it's not easy when it gets all hectic.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:45

A bit of useful background from thread #7:

KnottyAuty · 08/02/2025 15:55

In honour of thread 7 here’s some homework I thought I better do before Tribunal Week 2 now that they have stopped discussing feelings and are getting on to actual useful legal stuff.

Hopefully I have got this summary right - this is the basis of the legal claim by Sandie Pegg (SP) to the Employment Tribunal:

SP (claimant) is the one who has brought the case to the Employment Tribunal (ET) – naming NHS Fife as Respondent 1 (R1) and Dr Upton as Respondent 2 (R2).

She claims against Dr U personally

Harassment under EA for being a biological male in the female only CR
Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.

She claims against NHS Fife:

Harassment under the EA regarding “protected beliefs” – citing a list of 12 timeline events:
The 3 encounters with Dr U in the CR between Aug & Dec 2023
Being put on special leave from 30/12/23
Being suspended on 4/1/24
Beginning a disciplinary investigation based on Dr U’s complaint
Continuing SP’s suspension on 2/2/24
Sought to persuade SP to return to work not at Vic Hospital 7/3/24
Refused to guarantee SP access to a female only CR 7/3/24
Extending SP’s suspension pending agreement on shifts 7/3/24
Requiring SP return to work on day shifts in order to be supervised (due to Dr U’s allegations on concern about patient care) 7/3/24
Informing SP of an allegation and investigation about patient care 28/3/24
Failing to progress the disciplinary investigation promptly
Prohibiting SP from discussing these legal matters/issues at work.
Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity
Victimisation (which I think is the indirect harassment bit?) similar to 3a but with 3 additional “detriments” including being informed of alleged bullying and unwanted behaviours to a colleague, as well as being asked to work day shifts in place of nights.
Whistleblowing complaint with similar detriments as the victimisation claim in 3c

The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies)

The NHS/Dr U allege it was SP who behaved inappropriately and that what she said was not a “protected disclosure” or a “protected act” so the subsequent events were not “detriments” to her (again my words – under the law she wouldn’t qualify for protection against victimisation or whistleblowing)

The NHS/Dr U confirmed that they would not rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence under the EA regarding Dr U’s conduct – saying this claim is vexatious and should not be pursued.

(Sorry the MN text editor has removed my original numbering so there will be some odd references which you can hopefully infer)

OP posts:
nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:53

Thanks ickky. I just wish we could have got through all the way. It's a crying shame.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 15:55

So Dr U defence here is that this case is 'vexatious' whilst admitting they have no empathy, expect complete capitulation, admitted that SP wouldn't be able to do anything right, said pronouns are not optional and then deliberately withheld a bunch of stuff that they didn't consider relevant thus retaining control of the narrative and has accused SP of harassment for merely wanting single sex facilities - a position that two sitting health minister are directly opposed to and got SP suspended for it.

What's remarkable is that even if there was disagreement between the two, NHS Fife didn't take responsibility and work out a third option nor defuse the situation. They simply sided with Dr U.

Well, this is going to be quite the read when the judgment comes out regardless of which way the ruling goes given the testimony given today.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:57

I will add that liverstreaming from the header does sound vaguely disgusting.

OP posts:
ValerieDoonican · 11/02/2025 15:58

Ah, that would explain why my pin suddenly became invalid.

I ditched X a while back because ugh, I'm now a bluesky user, and if I look for any discussion of this is it all very much 'poor poor victimised Beth so terrible the way she has been treated by this hateful transphobe and her transphobic counsel'. So I imagine not all the observers were sceptical about the fragrant doctor's testimony.

ValerieDoonican · 11/02/2025 16:01

Interestingly there is criticism of the health board from posters from the poor Beth 'angle' as well. I certainly feel Fife have let both SP and DU down very badly. Presumably because they simply could not imagine there was any doubt that the TRA line was 100% correct and could not be coherently challenged. I suspect that failure of imagination is going to cost them dear, one way or another.

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 16:12

ValerieDoonican · 11/02/2025 16:01

Interestingly there is criticism of the health board from posters from the poor Beth 'angle' as well. I certainly feel Fife have let both SP and DU down very badly. Presumably because they simply could not imagine there was any doubt that the TRA line was 100% correct and could not be coherently challenged. I suspect that failure of imagination is going to cost them dear, one way or another.

Or they couldn't deal with the Dr U speak and just went with it rather like this -

Dr U as"Ka" and NHS Fife as "Mowgli" obvs

"Trusssst in meeeee"

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 16:13

ValerieDoonican · 11/02/2025 16:01

Interestingly there is criticism of the health board from posters from the poor Beth 'angle' as well. I certainly feel Fife have let both SP and DU down very badly. Presumably because they simply could not imagine there was any doubt that the TRA line was 100% correct and could not be coherently challenged. I suspect that failure of imagination is going to cost them dear, one way or another.

Well quite.

They could have forced the issue and said pack it in to Upton. They didn't. They sided with Upton. In the long run I suspect this won't be in the best interests of Upton and Upton's career.

The only people who will hire Upton now will be other full on TRAs. Others, particularly any sane woman, will just see a problem waiting to happen from Uptons demonstration and self admission of a lack of empathy and respect for others.

Waitwhat23 · 11/02/2025 16:31

ickky · 11/02/2025 15:43

Just wanted to say thank you nauticant for all your excellent thread management. I know it's not easy when it gets all hectic.

Agreed. Many, many thanks Nauticant

Mmmnotsure · 11/02/2025 16:32

Have we had this yet? From the wonderful moleatthedoor on X:

Mmmnotsure · 11/02/2025 16:34

Aaahh Can’t we do pictures yet?

it was Pete’s gravestone who died of imaginary misgendering:
@moleatthedoor

KohlaParasaurus · 11/02/2025 16:35

Thanks @nauticant for your sterling work in managing this discussion.

I am very much looking forward, in a ghoulish sort of way, to hearing the testimony of those who are complicit in having facilitated the behaviour of this unsavoury individual and who should have known better.

Boiledbeetle · 11/02/2025 16:35

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:57

I will add that liverstreaming from the header does sound vaguely disgusting.

As long as it comes with lots of gravy I'm OK with that!

ickky · 11/02/2025 16:37

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:53

Thanks ickky. I just wish we could have got through all the way. It's a crying shame.

It really is, just as we were getting to the fife employees questions which is where I think it would completely unravel for the respondents.

Hopefully they will sort it out and we can get back in tomorrow.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 11/02/2025 16:38

As always, thanks everyone for such excellent commentary.

SernieBanders · 11/02/2025 16:41

ValerieDoonican · 11/02/2025 15:58

Ah, that would explain why my pin suddenly became invalid.

I ditched X a while back because ugh, I'm now a bluesky user, and if I look for any discussion of this is it all very much 'poor poor victimised Beth so terrible the way she has been treated by this hateful transphobe and her transphobic counsel'. So I imagine not all the observers were sceptical about the fragrant doctor's testimony.

thats the main reason not to go to bluesky. echo chamber...Just like reddit in fact

GCITC · 11/02/2025 16:42

ValerieDoonican · 11/02/2025 16:01

Interestingly there is criticism of the health board from posters from the poor Beth 'angle' as well. I certainly feel Fife have let both SP and DU down very badly. Presumably because they simply could not imagine there was any doubt that the TRA line was 100% correct and could not be coherently challenged. I suspect that failure of imagination is going to cost them dear, one way or another.

I'm sure NHS Fife would be happy to throw DU under the bus if they thought doing so would help their case.

rebmacesrevda · 11/02/2025 16:44

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 16:13

Well quite.

They could have forced the issue and said pack it in to Upton. They didn't. They sided with Upton. In the long run I suspect this won't be in the best interests of Upton and Upton's career.

The only people who will hire Upton now will be other full on TRAs. Others, particularly any sane woman, will just see a problem waiting to happen from Uptons demonstration and self admission of a lack of empathy and respect for others.

If the NHS manage to get rid of him, he'll get a job in a private clinic selling hormones to children.

serendipitea · 11/02/2025 16:44

ickky · 11/02/2025 16:37

It really is, just as we were getting to the fife employees questions which is where I think it would completely unravel for the respondents.

Hopefully they will sort it out and we can get back in tomorrow.

Just to say I got a message from ET saying access will be only for bona fide media and TT "until further notice".

ChoccyJules · 11/02/2025 16:45

So because people are actually interested it becomes hidden behind closed-doors. Nice.

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