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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:43

From TT:
Panel You were asked re your role and you said you offered leadership, with no direct reports. What are you responsible for.
GM [inc] Governance, complaints, adverse events and provide leadership for directorship - patient care standards
P You have no direct line management
P who ED report to?
GM Angie Shepherd
P re i/xs, using policy. You had some involvement - emails, etc. What was your role when those i/x going on.

GM Would be told c i/x. Then pass to i/x manager. No involvement in i/x. May participate in panel as prof nursing manager

P Was there anything in this i/x that was different.
GM Would be cc'd in. In this i/x probably happened more than I would ordinarily be.
P [to doc] You were asked if you were down as investigator. You said it wasn't i/x er - my job is to decide are my notes, what was your
full answer. As your name was against i/x er on a doc.
GM The i/x manager would be - would be confirmed, wouldn't be me.
P Normally that would be person in ED role
[missed]
Another panel member Any reason why you copied in more than would normally be?
GM Perhaps because ED inexperienced.
J You are Head of Nursing Medical Directorate. That is?
GM Responsible from E Dept through [missed]
J How many heads
GM There are three within acute division
J What is the corporate services
GM Serve whole of NHS Fife, eg infection control
J If working in ED are you under this medical directorate umbrella. Why would Mr Doyle be involved
GM TO offer ED support. Couldn't be me.
J Offering support re suspension?
J Why could you provide support re suspension and not [missed]
GM [missed]That would be the part I

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:44

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:42

Creating new threads gets me a temporary ban by MN. Nothing sinister, it's just an automatic site protection measure provided by Cloudflare.

This means that creating new threads is a random business, sometimes a ban, sometimes success, so I've started the continuation thread earlier than normal to make sure it's up in time:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

It think it's connected to the amount of links in the first post. It kept doing it to me when I've tried posting a long list of other threads

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 15:44

That's bonkers that it gets you a temporary ban. I'd understand if you were just making repeat empty threads but they're all full historical threads 😱

Thank you though for the work you're putting into this.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 15:44

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 15:38

Attempts Fife accent Stop! Hee's alreedy deed!!

Brilliant 🤩

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:45

From what he asks I think the judge has a good idea of which way his decision will be going

NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:46

From TT:
was involved in
J reads
GM referred to SP being uncomfortable
J Do you know what arrangements were put in place
GM No
J No docs before decision to suspend taken.
J Is there anything in bundle that would tell us about discussions you held with ED
GM No

J If discussing if someone being suspended and it's based around risk assess could you have discussion in absence of risk assessment in writing
GM no
J All risk assess carried out in writing?
GM yes

J Back to template doc with i/x investigation notification. Then doc confirmation of suspension.
J Is first one investigation letter
GM no a different letter
J Is there a template letter for confirmation of suspension
GM don't believe so
J Ah

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 15:46

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 15:23

@BeLemonNow Mind you am starting to understand why Sandie prefers working nights with her senior management!

For the final few years, I worked nights precisely so.I could avoid management. The job is hard enough without having to put up with them too

Thanks! I am appreciating the hard work of NHS nurses even more following this tribunal.

I'm guessing there are no 365 degree feedback forms ?I.e. everyone completes anon reports as part of performance reviews.

Obs you get negative reviews, but "I have never met this person I am being asked to review so am unable to" would be rather damning imho.

I am shocked, despite having worked in a large public sector organisation. Kafkesque bureaucracy isn't new to me. This madness is.

Heavybuthopeful · 17/07/2025 15:46

ThatsALeafJean · 17/07/2025 15:17

from Fife, still live here & work for NHS Fife!

I am a Scot living in Australia.

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:46

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:45

From what he asks I think the judge has a good idea of which way his decision will be going

I feel like the frequency of his interjections has been gradually increasing...

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:48

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:44

It think it's connected to the amount of links in the first post. It kept doing it to me when I've tried posting a long list of other threads

Yes, I think so too. From thread #31 onwards there will be no list of previous threads but a direction about where to find them instead.

OP posts:
NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:48

I'm just copying TT over here asap so ok to comment. Apologies I do not speak Fife and no entertaining commentary!

murasaki · 17/07/2025 15:49

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:46

I feel like the frequency of his interjections has been gradually increasing...

I'm still amused that his mind was on gin around 11 am ish..... can't blame him.

ickky · 17/07/2025 15:49

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:44

It think it's connected to the amount of links in the first post. It kept doing it to me when I've tried posting a long list of other threads

Maybe just link the previous thread? It might stop it flagging it up.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 15:50

NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:48

I'm just copying TT over here asap so ok to comment. Apologies I do not speak Fife and no entertaining commentary!

Thank you 😁

NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:50

From TT:
J When do you understand i/x started
GM When ED - Jan
J Not something you were involved in saying ED you do i/x
J Where would nomination come from
GM Could be myself or service manager
J Do you remember if you were involved
GM I Can't recall
J When did you realise ED
not best person for i/x
[missed]
J You said let's find new person and you found AG . When?
GM 29 Feb
J 12 April. Gap between 29/2 and 12/4 - do you know why gap between telling AG re i/x and 12/4 when there appears to be an initial i/x
GM, no, not clear.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 15:51

J Is there a template letter for confirmation of suspension
GM don't believe so
J Ah
You say it best, when you say [nearly] nothing at allGrin

murasaki · 17/07/2025 15:51

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:48

Yes, I think so too. From thread #31 onwards there will be no list of previous threads but a direction about where to find them instead.

Makes sense, and thanks again. The cast list would still be handy though, sometimes I have to flick back to check initials. I assume that'd be fine due to not being links?

I so appreciate your efforts, it's a mighty job!

Hoardasurass · 17/07/2025 15:52

Please keep pulling on that thread judge the whole jumper will unravel

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 15:52

Do ET judges get to choose which cases they hear?

maltravers · 17/07/2025 15:52

Is the investigation a game of pass the hot potato/poisoned chalice? Or is this chaos their normal way of working?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 15:54

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 15:00

Does Baloney, as Head of Nursing, even have to use the changing room anymore?

She's happy stripping in front of a biological man at midnight then...

At least ED, Sandie's management thought Sandie had a reasonable issue.

She should be sacked based on this shit show.

(Old comment, catching up)

She's happy stripping in front of a biological man at midnight then...

Hint: It's OK for the Morlocks to do this

NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:54

From TT:
J How did you appoint AG
GM Teams call
J Anything said that there might be a period of time before available
GM Not that I recall
J Thank you
JR [to doc] Interview DU gave in AG i/x.
JR DU description of interaction with SP on Xmas eve - please read. You were asked qs c if SP expressing G C beliefs. Do you think commenting on someone's chromosomes is part of GC belief or not
MG Don't believe that's the case. Unwanted q to ask someone. Harrrassment

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 15:54

Hoardasurass · 17/07/2025 15:52

Please keep pulling on that thread judge the whole jumper will unravel

That's rather a dramatic way of removing a jumper😂

For the mystified - during a dull moment [ie. before NC was up😉] there was a long-running intermittent discussion about different ways of taking off a jumper.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 15:54

Why did they even bother with a disciplinary process. None of these fuckwits know how they are supposed to conduct a disciplinary process. There is no protocol for carrying out a disciplinary process.

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 15:57

getting a bit lost with these dates about when confidentiality was mentioned.

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