NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

Reading along from Aus and havent read all the threads so I am very sorry if this has been asked and answered but what has happened about DrUs phone? Wasnt it supposed to have been handed over as evidence? I cant see it being mentioned for a while? Many thanks in advance. And has anyone else mentioned that Isla Bumba sounds like a character from a Galbraith novel??? I cant read her name without thinking this is something JK made up :-)

@ThreeWordHarpy got to bear in mind too that the effect of hormone treatment etc will be much further on in 2025:than in 2023. If BU only started treatment etc in 2022 or 2023 it would have been more evident that we had a male presenting as a woman when the incidents happened.

I was struck by the building NC seemed to make today re email sign off and JR asserting no one had complained to IB as if that in itself proved they had no cause to be concerned about how women might feel. It felt like JR has missed where NC was going and that this undermines the claim wholly. Clearly with her position declared in her email sign off women who might have complained would see that as a threat - particularly given they could see perfectly well how Peggie has been treated - and not complain.
I hope NC establishes that with such obvious bias the chance of complaints was likely to be nil. But it also seems like a mad line of defence - as equalities head I only need to consider issues of equality for groups that complain? Surely this in itself is indirect discrimination!!

Absolutely cracking first witness for them - gift of a headline all the stuff about I don't know what sex I am nonsense. Certainly exceeded my already high (or possibly low) expectations. Roll on tomorrow!

How about a bit of fantasy-island-changing-room?
While IB was speaking about how it was fine for female staff to change in front of male colleagues and that noone had complained, I figured I would like to pop her in the changing room with a male and see if her opinion changed.
My top choice was Sarah Jane Baker.
Who would be on your CR team for this thought experiment?

But isn’t she just lying under oath as she doesn’t know what sex she is

or is stupidity a reasonable line of defense

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst and @anyolddinosaur WRT the photo you mentioned in the previous thread. From my recollection it’s from the Scottish Government consultation sessions on the Reform of the GRR.

If she truly believes that she doesn't know what sex she is, then it isn't considered a lie. However as others pointed out previously, if she didn't report to casualty due to abdominal bleeding on her first period, then it would be difficult for her to prove it was a genuinely held belief...?

I can't get passed it either, inc the experience requirements.
I think someone hit it on the head, someone, somewhere has pulled some strings.

I think she is lying and have had a Gypsy Kings earworm about her today.

Bumba Liar, Bumba Liar....

Can I have two Isla's and a Nicola?

If she truly believes that she doesn't know what sex she is, then it isn't considered a lie.

Listening to the stuff she spouted about not knowing what chromosomes she has etc, she's absolutely drunk the Kool Aid.

It really does appear that you can take a normal, intelligent person (capable of getting a Degree in this case), then add Gender Identity Ideology to the mix, and the result is a person who makes the titular Village idiot look like a genius.

Indeed.
the person in charge of the procedure should just have said to IB now just go on your way as your are obviously not in full command of your senses and you should not be receiving your salary at all if you don’t even know what sex you are

on your way lady or whatever you think or don’t think you are

Scotland my country WTAF

I'll have a Sophie Molly and a non-threatening but highly annoying Maggie PersonPerson (TOP ALLY!) please, Bob.

People wouldn't have complained to IB about DU in the CR because they would have complained to their line manager.

She must be mainlining Kool Aid for breakfast, with regular stints on a Kool Aid IV drip for good measure. How on earth would your brain not twig the nonsense otherwise?

Someone on the last set of threads made a comment about the class as well as the power imbalance between Upton and Sandie. I definitely got "luxury belief" vibes from IB.

The other vital ingredient is cowardice. All the believers are terrified of the truth, and will say whatever it takes to ensure their acceptance in the tribe.
The people who resist it are invariably notable for their strong backbone, emotional resilience and ability to withstand insults.

Has there even been a case where one or many "trans ally" witnesses haven't managed to correctly sex/pronoun under cross examination?

It really doesn't seem to matter how much they claim to believe TWAW, they all fail to maintain the pretence under a little pressure.

The phone is allegedly being forensically examined by their lawyers so no need for a crt order to do so apparently.

shudders

I wouldn't want to be in any enclosed space with Molly/Sparkles - he's got the same blank, dead behind the eyes vibe as creepy Jeffrey Marsh.

If he doesn't peak IB, nothing will!

😂😂😂

I can think of three trans lawyers. I'd like to pop all of them in there and see what she makes of their briefs.