NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

For anyone following Tribunal Tweets, this is their list of the abbreviations used:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R1/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

Placemarking. Thanks @nauticant for your absolutely sterling work keeping these fast-moving threads going. Much appreciated.

Placemarking as I can't seem to keep up

A request to make to people reading the thread. We've seen what a nightmare this has been for Sandie, and what a gruelling and uncertain experience it is to go through an Employment Tribunal. It would be even harder going through it and worrying about how to fund it.

Other women are going through similar experiences and need our support, so at least they're able to focus on the important parts and not worry all the time about funding. One woman going through this is Sarah Holman who is crowdfunding under Harassed and Victimised for supporting Women’s Rights. It's possible she's unaware of the support offered by Mumsnet and it would be great if she could receive some.

Done

Nauticant you are an amazing woman. Thanks to you, and to all the other posters here, this is staying in the sunlight.

Perhaps I need a Tunnocks bar. Apologies to all aficionados but I've never actually had one <ducks and runs, in the hope that this confession will be forgotten when we get to the next thread 🏃🏿‍♀️>

@bonfirelady

Sorry to drag your confession across to the new thread but I was too slow to say this on the last one.

I have a mental image of the sales and marketing teams Tunnocks looking at this week's sales figures and scratching their heads trying to work out why they have gone through the roof. Little do they know the power of the MN FSW boards and our love of a tea cake/ Carmel bar.

Claiming harassment against Upton shouldnt just be on the basis of behaviour on Christmas Eve, it was part of a pattern of behaviour. He was keeping records from the beginning of whether she looked at him or didnt look at him. After Christmas Eve he went back to the changing room, he claims and was "scared" because she looked at him.

I wonder where other people thought he was that day?

Tunnocks TERFcakes now.

Back in the last thread… @Boiledbeetle I salute you for the "made-up story" you told ❤️

For anyone on the previous thread wondering what the bloody hell we're on about when we're mentioning volume 2 and 3, it's books of poetry, written by various posters on FWR in response to the GRR Bill and edited and published by Boiled Beetle.

Currently on Amazon for a decent price and the monies go towards For Women Scotland.

Another excellent book to read (although not written by FWR posters (well, they probably are on here!) is The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht. Available at Waterstones (if it hasn't been hidden by activist staff members).

Two quotes

It's like Omertà - just not allowed to talk about it

And

"Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short and wear shirts and boots because it's okay to be a boy; for girls it's like promotion. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, according to you, because secretly you believe that being a girl is degrading."

I think that many people have got stuck here: for a man to want to be a woman, he must be really serious, because it's a downgrade.

In my experience with regards to discussion and the media and gaps in reporting, I've found over the years it's always worth LOOKING for the gaps in debate. They often reveal more than the things that are talked about.

And this is certainly where women's voices fall into a void where there is an invisibility.

Once you get It and you you see it, it's something that has such value. The taboo in society says more about society than the conformity.

And on the second point this is the well my parents fell down "if he feels that bad and that strongly, then we must take this seriously and affirm rather than ask questions about society and sexism". Because ultimately they came from a place where they bought into and BELIEVED those sexist values and couldn't understand why you'd reject them as the ACTUAL problem.

LOL at TERFcakes

nauticant · Today 15:09

MN hasn't felt able to give us a complete free expression on these issues but what it has provided has been of immense value.

That’s totally fair. I’m new, I overstepped - happy to take the L so as to preserve the value these boards provide.

I haven't caught up on the last thread yet so don't know if this has been posted yet but the express has been reported to the police over calling Dr Upton a man and using his real name

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Tried to post this on thread 19 but was too slow....

Copying and pasting here instead FAO KnottyAuty

----

Managed to spot a quote notification just before time-travelling back to page 25. I'm hoping I can squeeze in my response before this thread is full [Contemporaneous Note: I failed]

Thank you ❤️❤️❤️

And as for my reference... Apologies for it being cryptic but I wanted to be cautious about what I said. From your posts, I'm guessing you'll know the issue/phenomenon I was describing but perhaps not that particular way of saying it.

Keeping things generic, have a look at the international airport code for that city and then maybe take a look at this (not only do these 3 letters relate to an airport but they are also short for something else):

https://archive.is/2pQIq

Even when people know about this "condition", I think it's a really helpful essay to read and have posted it on one of the earlier threads too.

------

<hops in Delorian back to real life for the rest of the afternoon then... at some point to finish thread 19>

To butcher a Doc Brown quote...

"It's gonna be really hard waiting 30 years [until I've had chance to get back onto MN again] before I can [read and] talk to you about everything that's happened in the past few days"

Hooray for lurkers delurking, brilliant long time posters, Sandie Peggie, Naomi Cunningham and many, many more people doing their bit to bring in sunlight and common sense ❤️☀️ See you all soon!

What I can get over with this, is the express is reporting what has happened in court verbatim - and factually - but then being reported to the police for observation. There is no politicisation going on in the journalism in this way but there is in reporting to the police.

It is not ok.

It is thought policing. Aka as trying to control.

Jut popped in to say that even on a Sunday NHS Fife is trending on Twitter, not in a good way. 😁

I’m not delurking as such as I used to post, but been absent for a while due to inability to string two thoughts or words together! So please excuse any spag errors! Just resurrecting (?) to say how happy I am to see new posters who are genuine de lurkers as it’s so wonderful to see more women standing up together. I genuinely believe the tide of public opinion (esp of young people based on my own rl anecdata) is starting to turn. And also wanted to say thank you very very much to everyone for these threads, I’m finding it hard to keep up but really really appreciate these threads so much, and the poems and songs! PS I’ll post my song as a separate post as it was previously deleted, my contemporaneous notes show it was deleted in here at least prior to 2022 (but I think it was a few year even before that) so it’ll be interesting to see ifs allowed to stand! Much love to all, newbies and oldies

Has anyone kept a tab on all the ETs/Settlements with/without crowdfunders women have had to raise (in terms of "won" vs "in progress" vs "awaiting trial").

Presumably SP is all set £-wise for the extra work, so I can plant some onion sets in an emptier field.

I'm sorry a Pulp song isn't as intellectual as others as a basis

They came from Staines, they had a thirst for knowledge
They saw a bandwagon at sixth form college
That’s where I caught their eye

They told me that they felt just like me
I said “in that case go live my life,
They said fine
Then in thirty seconds time they said

We want to dress like women people
We want to have whatever women people have
We want to be like women people
Want to live like women people
like me

Well what else could I do
I said “I’ll see what I can do”

I told them about women’s spaces
I don’t know why
But it must have started somewhere
So it started there

They said pretend we’ve got no willies,
I just laughed and said,
"Oh you’re so silly”
They said "Yeah?
Well I can't see anyone else laughing in here.
Are you sure..

You want to live like women people,
You want to have whatever women people have,
You want to dress like women people,
You want to be like women people,
Like me
But I didn't understand,
I just smiled and held their hand.

Grow your hair and wear a skirt
Pretend that all your feelz are hurt
Pretend the records can be wiped
Conform to all the stereotypes
But still you’ll never get it right
Cause when you’re laid in bed at night
And female fun just starts to pall
If you changed your mind you could stop it all.

You'll never live like women people,
You'll never do whatever women people do,
You'll never be like women people,
Your male gaze never slides out of view
So go back to being you
Because there’s nothing else to do

Sing along with the women people,
Sing along and it might just get you through.
Laugh along with the women people,
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you,
And the stupid things that you do.
Because you know women are cool.

Just place marking.

[From previous thread, p40]

"... To succeed surely NC will focus on proving the harassment and principle of why single spaces are needed, rather than relying on the old law which others argue is out of date? For example historically the law allowed people to own slaves, and that was changed when social values rightly moved on. Or am I missing something?"

@KnottyAuty - I don't think old laws go out of date. They are either repealed or amended by Parliament, or they are clarified by judicial interpretation (ie in cases of lack of clarity the courts say what Parliament must have meant by the words they used).

AIUI the 1992 Workplace Regulations mandatory requirement for employers to provide separate changing rooms (and toilets and washing facilities) for men and women has not been repealed, amended or clarified, so the requirement still applies.

Now there may be an argument around what the terms "men" and "women" mean in the context of the regulations, but I don't think anybody has legally argued that anywhere yet. (Although the pending Supreme court decision in the FWS case might help to clarify what the terms mean).

I think I am a bit surprised that NC has not mentioned the workplace regs so far, but I presume she will in her summing up/closing argument.

(By the way - and not a criticism of you - but I'm reminded of the poster in a previous thread who complained to her HR dept that their EDI training was wrong in law and was told by HR something like: "The law is out of date. We're ahead of the law and waiting for it to catch up"!!! 😀 A good example of why you should never trust legal advice from a policeman or a HR bod!)

Doesn't time fly when you're enjoying yourself!

After a couple of jaw-dropping weeks it's been great to have the chance to tease out some of what we've heard and seen.

Does anyone remember that thread where lots of poems and songs were deleted due to mass outrage and reports from TRAs having a massive tantrum? On my notes I did these when mine was deleted and it was allowed to stand I think

There once was a Wokeland lived in by folk
So strong and so brave, so stunning and woke
Yet songs made them cry
They couldn’t scroll by
The truth that a penis makes you a bloke