Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 15:22

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:18

Nc done quick break

What, she's not coming back after the break?? Say it ain't so!
oh yeah, just seen 'no further qs'🙁

oldwomanwhoruns · 17/07/2025 15:22

I thought that our Naomi was going to go on to the ... and suppose Pete had long hair... (etc).
But she didn't need to. Point made.

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 15:22

viques · 17/07/2025 14:51

Which doesn’t bode well for those brave foot soldiers who are standing for Womens Officer and LGBTQ Champion in the Students Union, wrapping themselves in trans flags and appropriate pronouns then proudly putting their activism in prime position on their CV when they apply for employment in the real world. Perhaps someone ought to warn them. Or let them find out the hard way.

Hopefully someone might tell them. But there again, that someone would probably be reported for transphobia. So, they will need to find out the hard way.

Scottishtizzler · 17/07/2025 15:22

The Fife translations are exactly how I would hear things being discussed where I work (another NHS Board).

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:22

From TT

GM [disagrees]
NC It was to stop her expressing her G C /sex realist beliefs
GM I don't agree
NC email Lottie Miles to you, 7 March. SP referred to Beth as he/man/male - appeared not a mistake but conscious misgendering. ED and I want to prevent SP using he/man etc in wider hospital.
NC This is trying to prevent these ideas being spread
GM Don't agree
NC Effect was to limit SP expression of her G C views
GM Wasn't to suggest SP be silenced, but to put her comments to her representative
NC But integrity of i/x already destroyed
NC restriction to SP not to speak was unwanted by SP
GM yes
NC [doc] SP interview with AG. SP says not great coming into work, staff members have been told not to talk to me about it. Not an enjoyable environment to work in

Fifer : Abdy fairt tae speak tae her. Naebdy wanted what shed jist got. Pure shame. Sake min.

N C It was Intimidating, embarrassing etc environment.
JR Can't put all those words to the witness.s

Big Sond wades in : suggests separating words out- humiliating, embarrassing etc

GM Awkward, I would say
NC Whole thing was kicked off by interaction with DU on 24/12
GM yes
NC By his presence in the cr etc
GM It was started by the dati x report
NC Re acceptable behaviour by male hospital employee who doesn't id as a woman. May be a long preamble

Big Sond (overheard muttering here we fuckin go again, Pete McPlumber if I'm no mistaken) "They can be difficult."

NC My hypothetical person is Peter. DU would call him a cis man
NC [Peter walks in on female colleague Jasmin, changing in f cr] Does male Peter deliberately violate colleagues boundaries
GM yes
NC And that is an ex of sexual harassment
GM unwanted behaviour
NC Commonly called sex harr
GM Harrassment anyway

There is a constellation of Anvils shimmering in the air. Like an iron chandelier. The threat is palpable. NC doesn't even glance at them.

NC If male staff installed webcam in f cr to watch them is sex harassment
GM y
NC cos violating privacy
GM y
NC if violates in different way, but going into f cr, also sex harrassment
GM
NC And if he refused to leave cr he would be suspended on gross misconduct
GM would be suspended
NC ON gross miscondiut
GM Would be a possible basis
NC But if Peter than says I'm a woman. Nothing else changed about him. Male clothes etc. I/x would say you are obviously a man, not trying to change
GM [agrees]
NC If Peter says I'm a gender non conforming woman, the investigator would be wholly unimpressed?
GM Yes

NC no further qs

The anvils clatter down, creating a cacophony of basso profundo CLONGs, and momentarily forming a 3 foot heap in the middle of the court room. NC absent mindedly swipes right and they vanish, not even leaving a dent in the council hard-wearing nylon carpet. There is a tang in the air. Nobody wants to know what it is, but everybody knows they need some fresher air.

J Ten minute break

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 15:23

@BeLemonNow Mind you am starting to understand why Sandie prefers working nights with her senior management!

For the final few years, I worked nights precisely so.I could avoid management. The job is hard enough without having to put up with them too

AAT65 · 17/07/2025 15:23

Born in Fife. Left in 1980.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 15:23

Datun · 17/07/2025 15:14

Oh my God, I'm loving this. It's like going to the cinema in the middle of the afternoon

NC is quite simply, magnificent, if it was a boxing match it would be stopped due to such a massive incompatibility. She has completely destroyed the credibility of this witness and of NHS Fife.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:25

I really can't continue after the break. Thanks for all the kind words, it's been work, but I've enjoyed paying back into the mumsnets, having benefitted so much from others putting in shifts on different tribunals and earlier in this one. Cheers.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 15:25

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:22

From TT

GM [disagrees]
NC It was to stop her expressing her G C /sex realist beliefs
GM I don't agree
NC email Lottie Miles to you, 7 March. SP referred to Beth as he/man/male - appeared not a mistake but conscious misgendering. ED and I want to prevent SP using he/man etc in wider hospital.
NC This is trying to prevent these ideas being spread
GM Don't agree
NC Effect was to limit SP expression of her G C views
GM Wasn't to suggest SP be silenced, but to put her comments to her representative
NC But integrity of i/x already destroyed
NC restriction to SP not to speak was unwanted by SP
GM yes
NC [doc] SP interview with AG. SP says not great coming into work, staff members have been told not to talk to me about it. Not an enjoyable environment to work in

Fifer : Abdy fairt tae speak tae her. Naebdy wanted what shed jist got. Pure shame. Sake min.

N C It was Intimidating, embarrassing etc environment.
JR Can't put all those words to the witness.s

Big Sond wades in : suggests separating words out- humiliating, embarrassing etc

GM Awkward, I would say
NC Whole thing was kicked off by interaction with DU on 24/12
GM yes
NC By his presence in the cr etc
GM It was started by the dati x report
NC Re acceptable behaviour by male hospital employee who doesn't id as a woman. May be a long preamble

Big Sond (overheard muttering here we fuckin go again, Pete McPlumber if I'm no mistaken) "They can be difficult."

NC My hypothetical person is Peter. DU would call him a cis man
NC [Peter walks in on female colleague Jasmin, changing in f cr] Does male Peter deliberately violate colleagues boundaries
GM yes
NC And that is an ex of sexual harassment
GM unwanted behaviour
NC Commonly called sex harr
GM Harrassment anyway

There is a constellation of Anvils shimmering in the air. Like an iron chandelier. The threat is palpable. NC doesn't even glance at them.

NC If male staff installed webcam in f cr to watch them is sex harassment
GM y
NC cos violating privacy
GM y
NC if violates in different way, but going into f cr, also sex harrassment
GM
NC And if he refused to leave cr he would be suspended on gross misconduct
GM would be suspended
NC ON gross miscondiut
GM Would be a possible basis
NC But if Peter than says I'm a woman. Nothing else changed about him. Male clothes etc. I/x would say you are obviously a man, not trying to change
GM [agrees]
NC If Peter says I'm a gender non conforming woman, the investigator would be wholly unimpressed?
GM Yes

NC no further qs

The anvils clatter down, creating a cacophony of basso profundo CLONGs, and momentarily forming a 3 foot heap in the middle of the court room. NC absent mindedly swipes right and they vanish, not even leaving a dent in the council hard-wearing nylon carpet. There is a tang in the air. Nobody wants to know what it is, but everybody knows they need some fresher air.

J Ten minute break

Just caught up, but wow.

NC didn't even need to go further into it.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 15:26

Oh dear. So GM has said that if an obvious man, who has made no changes to his appearance used the female changing rooms and suddenly declared he was a woman, they'd be having none of it.

So what's the difference with Upton? The fact that he declared he was a woman earlier and wore a bit of lippy?

There is zero difference. Particularly as you don't even need to change your appearance, and a trans identified man can sport a beard if he wants.

Oh dearly me.this is not going well for them at all.

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:27

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 15:23

NC is quite simply, magnificent, if it was a boxing match it would be stopped due to such a massive incompatibility. She has completely destroyed the credibility of this witness and of NHS Fife.

Agreed. It's a clear case of intellectual discrimination.

sillygoof · 17/07/2025 15:27

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:25

I really can't continue after the break. Thanks for all the kind words, it's been work, but I've enjoyed paying back into the mumsnets, having benefitted so much from others putting in shifts on different tribunals and earlier in this one. Cheers.

You’ve been so funny, which we all really need considering what we’re reading!

kittykarate · 17/07/2025 15:28

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:25

I really can't continue after the break. Thanks for all the kind words, it's been work, but I've enjoyed paying back into the mumsnets, having benefitted so much from others putting in shifts on different tribunals and earlier in this one. Cheers.

Thanks so much for all your work Oney! You've really brightened my day when I should have been working.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 15:28

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 15:23

@BeLemonNow Mind you am starting to understand why Sandie prefers working nights with her senior management!

For the final few years, I worked nights precisely so.I could avoid management. The job is hard enough without having to put up with them too

Last time I was in hospital while I was still living in the UK, the nurses during the day were very tick-boxy and clipboardish. The night shift were older dinosaurs, who did outdated things like making my bed up properly and making sure I had water within reach. One of them even made me a cuppa once.
I think I know which group SP belonged toSmile

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 17/07/2025 15:28

What an absolute fucking farce. No wonder NHS Fife fought to have this conducted behind closed doors.

I really hope Sandie Peggie is enjoying watching these utter fools squirm.

And we have 8 more days of this to go!

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:28

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:25

I really can't continue after the break. Thanks for all the kind words, it's been work, but I've enjoyed paying back into the mumsnets, having benefitted so much from others putting in shifts on different tribunals and earlier in this one. Cheers.

CHEERIO HEN!! X

frenchnoodle · 17/07/2025 15:29

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:25

I really can't continue after the break. Thanks for all the kind words, it's been work, but I've enjoyed paying back into the mumsnets, having benefitted so much from others putting in shifts on different tribunals and earlier in this one. Cheers.

Thank you

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 17/07/2025 15:29

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:25

I really can't continue after the break. Thanks for all the kind words, it's been work, but I've enjoyed paying back into the mumsnets, having benefitted so much from others putting in shifts on different tribunals and earlier in this one. Cheers.

👏 👏 👏

Thank you for your hilarious commentary!!

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:29

After demolishing GM who is getting Naomied tomorrow

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:29

ThatsALeafJean · 17/07/2025 15:17

from Fife, still live here & work for NHS Fife!

Born adjacent to the Vic (iykyk) and lived in the middle of the Kingdom until I moved to Edinburgh after school. Been up and down a lot in the last year, not for fun reasons, but it was really good to see so many of my old neebors and cousins. Gey few of the auntie and uncle generation left, sadly, but saw them too.

DontStopMe · 17/07/2025 15:29

I've been out all morning and I'm still catching up. I just want to say extra special thanks to @BezMills for the Fifer translations. I'm not a Fifer, but originally from not too far away, and you're doing a fantastic job.

Chersfrozenface · 17/07/2025 15:30

Thank you @BezMills. I've very much appreciated the C&P from TT and loved the cartoon descriptions and the Fifer commentary.

You have been magnificent.

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:30

I've got a new earworm, thanks to GM:

"It started with a Datix ..."

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread