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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
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18
Conxis · 17/07/2025 15:30

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 15:26

Oh dear. So GM has said that if an obvious man, who has made no changes to his appearance used the female changing rooms and suddenly declared he was a woman, they'd be having none of it.

So what's the difference with Upton? The fact that he declared he was a woman earlier and wore a bit of lippy?

There is zero difference. Particularly as you don't even need to change your appearance, and a trans identified man can sport a beard if he wants.

Oh dearly me.this is not going well for them at all.

And GM just agreed would be misconduct!
Do we think NC might ask if it’s Pete or Jasmin who should be suspended???

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:30

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:28

CHEERIO HEN!! X

That's me awa the noo hen!

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 15:31

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:28

CHEERIO HEN!! X

Shades of RealFeminist there! 😆

ickky · 17/07/2025 15:31

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 15:29

After demolishing GM who is getting Naomied tomorrow

😂

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 15:31

@BezMills thank you - I have guffawed at your translations. The cat is staring at me with a worried look.

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:32

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 15:31

Shades of RealFeminist there! 😆

D'ye mean Wee Nippy, aye?

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 15:32

If I was JR I'd be tempted to sneak some gin into my water bottle during this break. The sun is almost over the yardarm and frankly whatever I say in reexamination in the next half hour is going to make fuck all difference after that.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 15:32

Thanks Bez, and thank you for not having me suspended and making up accusations of professional misconduct about me when I misgendered you earlier!😁

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:32

kittykarate · 17/07/2025 15:28

Thanks so much for all your work Oney! You've really brightened my day when I should have been working.

Bladdy hell KK, how nice to bump into you! I hope you're keeping well.

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 15:32

And I'm from Edinburgh, now E. Lothian.

There's a fair few of us on here, I suspect, probably just because of the shitshow up here.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 15:33

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 14:56

I do wonder how many Scots are on here and where we're all from. It would be interesting (but I suspect unwieldy) to find out.

Waves from the north, born and bred

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 15:33

Today's press reports are going to be brutal!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/07/2025 15:34

That's another great article - clear and unambiguous about what Sandie was tried for by NHS Fire. Great reporting.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:34

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 15:32

Thanks Bez, and thank you for not having me suspended and making up accusations of professional misconduct about me when I misgendered you earlier!😁

ah yeah, never mind that. I don't swan around giving it asaman, because, yanno, ick. But if it does explicitly come up, seems like you got to be up front.

viques · 17/07/2025 15:35

BezMills · 17/07/2025 15:22

From TT

GM [disagrees]
NC It was to stop her expressing her G C /sex realist beliefs
GM I don't agree
NC email Lottie Miles to you, 7 March. SP referred to Beth as he/man/male - appeared not a mistake but conscious misgendering. ED and I want to prevent SP using he/man etc in wider hospital.
NC This is trying to prevent these ideas being spread
GM Don't agree
NC Effect was to limit SP expression of her G C views
GM Wasn't to suggest SP be silenced, but to put her comments to her representative
NC But integrity of i/x already destroyed
NC restriction to SP not to speak was unwanted by SP
GM yes
NC [doc] SP interview with AG. SP says not great coming into work, staff members have been told not to talk to me about it. Not an enjoyable environment to work in

Fifer : Abdy fairt tae speak tae her. Naebdy wanted what shed jist got. Pure shame. Sake min.

N C It was Intimidating, embarrassing etc environment.
JR Can't put all those words to the witness.s

Big Sond wades in : suggests separating words out- humiliating, embarrassing etc

GM Awkward, I would say
NC Whole thing was kicked off by interaction with DU on 24/12
GM yes
NC By his presence in the cr etc
GM It was started by the dati x report
NC Re acceptable behaviour by male hospital employee who doesn't id as a woman. May be a long preamble

Big Sond (overheard muttering here we fuckin go again, Pete McPlumber if I'm no mistaken) "They can be difficult."

NC My hypothetical person is Peter. DU would call him a cis man
NC [Peter walks in on female colleague Jasmin, changing in f cr] Does male Peter deliberately violate colleagues boundaries
GM yes
NC And that is an ex of sexual harassment
GM unwanted behaviour
NC Commonly called sex harr
GM Harrassment anyway

There is a constellation of Anvils shimmering in the air. Like an iron chandelier. The threat is palpable. NC doesn't even glance at them.

NC If male staff installed webcam in f cr to watch them is sex harassment
GM y
NC cos violating privacy
GM y
NC if violates in different way, but going into f cr, also sex harrassment
GM
NC And if he refused to leave cr he would be suspended on gross misconduct
GM would be suspended
NC ON gross miscondiut
GM Would be a possible basis
NC But if Peter than says I'm a woman. Nothing else changed about him. Male clothes etc. I/x would say you are obviously a man, not trying to change
GM [agrees]
NC If Peter says I'm a gender non conforming woman, the investigator would be wholly unimpressed?
GM Yes

NC no further qs

The anvils clatter down, creating a cacophony of basso profundo CLONGs, and momentarily forming a 3 foot heap in the middle of the court room. NC absent mindedly swipes right and they vanish, not even leaving a dent in the council hard-wearing nylon carpet. There is a tang in the air. Nobody wants to know what it is, but everybody knows they need some fresher air.

J Ten minute break

It’s almost as though NC has said very sweetly, “Here, put on this blindfold , and follow my voice as I guide you across this minefield one step at a time. Oops.”

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 15:36

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 15:32

If I was JR I'd be tempted to sneak some gin into my water bottle during this break. The sun is almost over the yardarm and frankly whatever I say in reexamination in the next half hour is going to make fuck all difference after that.

Big Sondie was already considering G&Ts hours ago, so I think she'd be forgiven.

murasaki · 17/07/2025 15:36

@BezMills you've been a wonder. I almost have a Fife accent in my head now.

maltravers · 17/07/2025 15:38

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 15:21

And Upton was so confident that he had the support of all the people cc’d in to that email that he asks about any changes required to his statement!

He’s dipping their hands in the blood, as it were. Making them complicit. Daring them to object. They’re all bit players to the starlet of the show.

CapabilityBrownsHaHa · 17/07/2025 15:38

Thank you, @BezMills for keeping me smiling this afternoon. And for everyone else for their commentary / explanations.

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 15:38

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 15:23

NC is quite simply, magnificent, if it was a boxing match it would be stopped due to such a massive incompatibility. She has completely destroyed the credibility of this witness and of NHS Fife.

The Simpsons GIF

Attempts Fife accent Stop! Hee's alreedy deed!!

maltravers · 17/07/2025 15:39

maltravers · 17/07/2025 15:38

He’s dipping their hands in the blood, as it were. Making them complicit. Daring them to object. They’re all bit players to the starlet of the show.

Akin to the changing room. You will all play along with me and support me, or you will be next.

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 15:40

Helen Joyce on Twitter:

Helen Joyce

@HJoyceGender

"We’re having a short break for the morticians to come and pick up this dead witness whom Naomi murdered in cold blood" - read up from here if you haven't been following along!

https://x.com/HJoyceGender

CapabilityBrownsHaHa · 17/07/2025 15:41
Fire This Is Fine GIF by MOODMAN

Pictorial representation of Fife's policy and procedure.

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:42

Creating new threads gets me a temporary ban by MN. Nothing sinister, it's just an automatic site protection measure provided by Cloudflare.

This means that creating new threads is a random business, sometimes a ban, sometimes success, so I've started the continuation thread earlier than normal to make sure it's up in time:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

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