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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:08

A request to make to people reading the thread. We've seen what a nightmare this has been for Sandie, and what a gruelling and uncertain experience it is to go through an Employment Tribunal. It would be even harder going through it and worrying about how to fund it.

Other women are going through similar experiences and need our support, so at least they're able to focus on the important parts and not worry all the time about funding. One woman going through this is Sarah Holman who is crowdfunding under Harassed and Victimised for supporting Women’s Rights. It's possible she's unaware of the support offered by Mumsnet and it would be great if she could receive some.

OP posts:
nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:10

If you've got a Twitter account and want a "clean" timeline of the tweeting by Tribunal Tweets, use this link:

https://x.com/search?q=from%3Atribunaltweets&src=typed_query&f=live

One handy thing about it is that if you scroll to the top of the tweets shown, the timeline automatically refreshes.

OP posts:
nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:11

For anyone following Tribunal Tweets, this is their list of the abbreviations used:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R1/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

OP posts:
nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:12

I'll include a message from @FayeRC:

To those who don't know me, I have filed a similar employment tribunal complaint against a large public sector employer in England's side, also represented by Naomi Cunningham. Second preliminary hearing will be in February. More info available on CrowdJustice.com, pls search for Faye Russell-Caldicott.

The last weekend before the prel hearing is now approaching, all support would be hugely appreciated.

OP posts:
nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:13

Please note this from the header:

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

OP posts:
nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:52

For clarity:

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

it seems that the last day of evidence will be 28 July but that is likely to be followed by 2 days of submissions from counsel for the parties.

OP posts:
KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 18:55

Hope it is OK to pop this here for me to placemark and for those who haven't managed to follow all whopping 18 threads so far. Thanks @nauticant for all the threads

Hopefully I have got this summary right - this is the basis of the legal claim by Sandie Pegg (SP) to the Employment Tribunal:

SP (claimant) is the one who has brought the case to the Employment Tribunal (ET) – naming NHS Fife as Respondent 1 (R1) and Dr Upton as Respondent 2 (R2).

She claims against Dr U personally

  • Harassment under EA for being a biological male in the female only CR
  • Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.

She claims against NHS Fife:

  • Harassment under the EA regarding “protected beliefs” – citing a list of 12 timeline events:
  • The 3 encounters with Dr U in the CR between Aug & Dec 2023
  • Being put on special leave from 30/12/23
  • Being suspended on 4/1/24
  • Beginning a disciplinary investigation based on Dr U’s complaint
  • Continuing SP’s suspension on 2/2/24
  • Sought to persuade SP to return to work not at Vic Hospital 7/3/24
  • Refused to guarantee SP access to a female only CR 7/3/24
  • Extending SP’s suspension pending agreement on shifts 7/3/24
  • Requiring SP return to work on day shifts in order to be supervised (due to Dr U’s allegations on concern about patient care) 7/3/24
  • Informing SP of an allegation and investigation about patient care 28/3/24
  • Failing to progress the disciplinary investigation promptly
  • Prohibiting SP from discussing these legal matters/issues at work.
  • Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity
  • Victimisation (which I think is the indirect harassment bit?) similar to 3a but with 3 additional “detriments” including being informed of alleged bullying and unwanted behaviours to a colleague, as well as being asked to work day shifts in place of nights.
  • Whistleblowing complaint with similar detriments as the victimisation claim in 3c

The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies)

The NHS/Dr U allege it was SP who behaved inappropriately and that what she said was not a “protected disclosure” or a “protected act” so the subsequent events were not “detriments” to her (again my words – under the law she wouldn’t qualify for protection against victimisation or whistleblowing)

The NHS/Dr U confirmed that they would not rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence under the EA regarding Dr U’s conduct – saying this claim is vexatious and should not be pursued.

(Sorry the MN text editor has removed my original numbering so there will be some odd references which you can hopefully infer)

WarriorN · 14/02/2025 19:23

Thanks Knotty, I haven't been able to due to work etc. I really appreciate the summary

WarriorN · 14/02/2025 19:25

And thanks to Nauticant and others too, that's quite some feat of organisation. (I hope R0 is reading and is I'm sure impressed!)

Britinme · 14/02/2025 19:28

Thanks for that summary @KnottyAuty . These threads are moving so fast and I am five hours behind the UK in time, so I've found them impossible to keep up with. Summaries are very welcome!

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 19:39

Thanks for the excellent thread management, @nauticant!

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 14/02/2025 19:41

Is this finally the thread that slows thing down? I might actually catch up!

😅

FreedomandPeace · 14/02/2025 19:43

Maya retweeted this 🤣

So that’s why Sandie stayed at a Trump hotel. The nhs do deals with them 🤣🤣

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19
nebulousMoose · 14/02/2025 19:44

I'm very grateful for these threads. Thanks to @nauticant and everyone who's contributed. Shocking and horrible to realise that this sustained attack on women's rights is so embedded in our institutions, and powerful to recognise that women won't stand for it any more.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 19:45

Thanks naut and everyone.

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 19:45
Brew
SameyMcNameChange · 14/02/2025 19:48

Reposting this so it is at the beginning of this thread:

I have a bit of Tribunal experience (but not employment law and not Scotland) and I thought people may find the following links/explanations useful when understanding how it all works.

The Employment Tribunal is there to establish facts, if there are any facts that are not agreed between the parties, and to hear the view of the relevant law from both sides, and then to decide which is the relevant law to apply to the facts as they are agreed or as the Tribunal has decided.

For example. It is an agreed fact that SP was suspended. It is a contested fact whether the 'resus patient' incident happened.

This is very important because as a general rule, once the ET has found the facts, you can't generally appeal those to a higher court. You can appeal to a higher court on a point of law. The only way to appeal facts to a higher court is a very high bar of 'no reasonable Tribunal could have found those facts'.
Some of the evidence will therefore be irrelevant because it is only the law relating to the actual appeal that will be decided upon. But some of it is useful in deciding how much weight to give to any individual person's evidence.

Once the judgement has been given, as mentioned above, only the points of law can be appealed. A judge has to give permission for the appeal to be allowed.

Employment Tribunal Procedure rules can be found here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1155/contents/made

Various directions and guidance specific to Scotland can be found here:
https://www.judiciary.uk/guidance-and-resources/directions-for-employment-tribunals-scotland/#practice

This includes guidance on transcripts and who can apply for them.

Further guidance and costs on requesting a transcript is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/order-a-transcript-of-court-or-tribunal-proceedings-form-ex107/guidance-for-requesting-a-transcript
It is possible to request a transcript for all, or only some, of the proceedings.

The Employment Tribunal Procedure Rules 2024

These Rules apply to proceedings before the employment tribunals (“the Tribunal”).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1155/contents/made

Shortpoet · 14/02/2025 19:50

The phone extract is so interesting.
I don’t know if anyone is following the Karen Read trial in the US, but one of the witnesses for prosecution handed over her phone over for extraction. They found from over 4000 Google searches on her phone there was only one deletion “hos long to die in cold” at 2.27am which was at a time the victim was indeed dying in the cold.
The witness said the data is wrong and she searched for the term in an already open search tab at 6am when the victim’s body was found. But she’s been proved to be lying about that. They can prove when she opened the tab and searched the term.
I don’t know how detailed an ET phone search would be, but with the right tech, nothing is ever truly deleted.

As an aside a couple of police officers personal phones were also destroyed by their owners less than 24hours before the phone preservation order was issued (Tip off?) on the pretext of an upgrade.

FannyCann · 14/02/2025 19:51

Thanks for excellent thread management.

I'm nowhere near caught up yet! What with threads here, TT on X and more.

Do we think remote access may be available again by July? I'm considering taking a trip to Scotland to MiL, who lives in Fife, so I can attend a couple of days. Such a shame not to have seen ED in action.

IStandwithSandie · 14/02/2025 19:51

Delurking to say thanks to @nauticant and others from previous threads.
I am employed by NHS Fife (although different department / hospital from SP)
I am utterly horrified at what my employer has done and the impact this has had on SP; I am scared about what this could mean for myself and colleagues as women employed by this organisation; and for our patients who could be exposed to deluded fuckwits like Dr Upton.
I am also fucking furious that we keep
receiving communications from management / the Chief Exec about the incredibly difficult financial position the health board is in, how there are difficult decisions to be made to save money etc…. But the incompetence of the health board’s management has led
to them having to piss £££££ up the wall on this tribunal! Completely maddening. Nothing about this helps patient care.

CoaltownFifer · 14/02/2025 19:52

FreedomandPeace · 14/02/2025 19:43

Maya retweeted this 🤣

So that’s why Sandie stayed at a Trump hotel. The nhs do deals with them 🤣🤣

Oooft! Employee makes use of endorsed staff discount scheme. How dare she 🤦‍♀️ Proof of her political affiliation and bigotry. Lol.

Shortpoet · 14/02/2025 20:00

This is the Isla article that a PP mentioned had been deleted.

lots of comments about Pronoun Emergencies on Twitter.

https://x.com/rangersmainly1/status/1890430947465519492?s=46&t=iAcnFkBKyFhTkY3vWggDfg

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19
Shortpoet · 14/02/2025 20:01

.

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/02/2025 20:09

One of the many things that comes out of this case and the absolute carnage that NHS Fife have caused through sheer arrogance and stupidity is a comprehensive demolition of the argument beloved of TRAs (and, indeed, passed unanimously this week at the Unision (Pretend) Women's Conference) that "Rights Are Not Like Pie".

You know what? They are. Turns out they fucking well are, as we've been saying for literally YEARS. If one party demands a bigger piece of the pie, then there is less left for other people. The "rights" (actually, privileges) demanded by Dr Upton and his merry band can only be had at the expense of the women who have conflicting and well-established rights.

If I thought anyone on the other side was capable of arguing their way out of a wet paper bag, I'd love to see this debated in public, but who on earth could they put up against Helen Joyce, Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater etc?

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 20:16

Shortpoet · 14/02/2025 20:00

This is the Isla article that a PP mentioned had been deleted.

lots of comments about Pronoun Emergencies on Twitter.

https://x.com/rangersmainly1/status/1890430947465519492?s=46&t=iAcnFkBKyFhTkY3vWggDfg

Does anyone spot the obvious problem in that text by Isla?

This is someone apparently trained in human rights and equality law.

I quote:

"Being able to take my passions forward as a career is a huge thing for me. Doing different things every day and tackling different aspects of race and ethnicity, gender, disability inequalities as part of my role helps me feel like I'm having a real impact on minority groups that don't always get the chance to have their voice heard."

Who is REALLY invisible to the Equality Department?

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