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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 15:57

From TT:
JR and same q re prisons comment.
GM Not part of GC belief and an unacceptable comment.
JR To March risk assessment. J Doyle to L Miles etc. When did you first see these emails
GM When I first saw bundle
JR DU using f cr. Is it your view that allowing that is affront to
dignity and privacy of f nurses
GM Was in line with guidance at time so believe it was right thing to do.
JR Was suggested that q of confidentiality was communicated [?date] to SP reads c not discussing
GM Was same information that was relayed

NotMyRealAccount · 17/07/2025 15:57

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 14:56

I do wonder how many Scots are on here and where we're all from. It would be interesting (but I suspect unwieldy) to find out.

Are we still tallying up Scots? Ex-pat, Land o' Burns born, alumnus of the same medical school as Dr Upton but a long time ago before all this was invented.

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 16:01

And we are finished

NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 16:02

From TT:
JR reads from another doc to SP mentioning confidentiality . KS email to consultants. When did you first see this.
GM When presented in bundle.
JR KS email from January. When did you first see
GM When presented in bundle
JR Another email sent
GM First saw when in bundle
JR This email from ED. When saw it first
GM Same
JR And this email from DU
GM Same
JR And ED email
GM same
[and more eg s]
JR Interaction between DU and SP - process started with Dati x. What do you think c incident. Did DU sexually harassed SP on that occasion.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 16:02

JR DU using f cr. Is it your view that allowing that is affront to
dignity and privacy of f nurses
GM Was in line with guidance at time so believe it was right thing to do.

hmm….so maybe she’s just trying to hold onto her job and isn’t full on TWAW 🤔🤔

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 16:02

This is so utterly damming from NC -

‘DU sends statement cc to all people copied in asking if needs changes to statement.
Exchanges inc person i/x ing and the complainant - confidentiality and integrity hopelessly compromised. GM [agrees shouldn't have been done in this way’

What an absolute shambles, how can any of these people be fit to treat the general public, or play any part in a medical setting? The sheer malevolence of them towards SP is an utter disgrace, and all because a mediocre, creepy man in a frock has a tantrum. I will never understand how any women go along with this absurdity, and certainly not how they are so willing to throw any non compliant women under the bus. It actually sickens me.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 16:03

JR is giving GM a platform to say what she thinks about 'someone' asking someone about their genes, making ref to prisoners etc, and GM can keep saying that it wouldn't be acceptable.

It has now been accepted that that didn't happen, those things were not said, so JR is giving GM the lifeline of saying she believed 100% in what she was told happened in the CR, and was acting on what she had been told and what she believed at the time.

she could just as easily have asked SP for her side of the story before throwing her weight behind DrU's version of events.

ickky · 17/07/2025 16:03

Louise Curran and Dr someone, didn't hear the name are witnesses tomorrow.

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 16:03

Oh man, we're not getting Vic Valentine! That was one of the ones I was most looking forward to...

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:03

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 16:02

JR DU using f cr. Is it your view that allowing that is affront to
dignity and privacy of f nurses
GM Was in line with guidance at time so believe it was right thing to do.

hmm….so maybe she’s just trying to hold onto her job and isn’t full on TWAW 🤔🤔

The 'i was just following orders' line of defence isn't going to save her credibility here.

Igneococcus · 17/07/2025 16:04

NotMyRealAccount · 17/07/2025 15:57

Are we still tallying up Scots? Ex-pat, Land o' Burns born, alumnus of the same medical school as Dr Upton but a long time ago before all this was invented.

Not Scottish, but in Scotland for many years. Worked in Fife for a few years and lived in Dundee. West coast now.

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 16:04

(I mean, her evidence is still being entered but there won't be any cross examination). Liked the judge saying 'he' er 'they'.

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 16:04

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 16:02

This is so utterly damming from NC -

‘DU sends statement cc to all people copied in asking if needs changes to statement.
Exchanges inc person i/x ing and the complainant - confidentiality and integrity hopelessly compromised. GM [agrees shouldn't have been done in this way’

What an absolute shambles, how can any of these people be fit to treat the general public, or play any part in a medical setting? The sheer malevolence of them towards SP is an utter disgrace, and all because a mediocre, creepy man in a frock has a tantrum. I will never understand how any women go along with this absurdity, and certainly not how they are so willing to throw any non compliant women under the bus. It actually sickens me.

I'm sorry I'm desperately trying to catch up. I can't quite understand the abbreviations, what happened here?

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 16:05

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 15:52

Do ET judges get to choose which cases they hear?

No. They are told which cases they are hearing.

murasaki · 17/07/2025 16:06

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 16:04

I'm sorry I'm desperately trying to catch up. I can't quite understand the abbreviations, what happened here?

Basically Sandie was told not to talk to anyone, Upton sent his statement round to a bunch of people asking if it should be changed, and that list including the person conducting the investigation.

IDareSay · 17/07/2025 16:07

From The Herald:
"And that's it for today session. Tomorrow's witnesses are Elspeth Pitt, Consultant in Emergency Medicine and Louise Curran, Senior Charge Nurse."

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 16:07

murasaki · 17/07/2025 16:06

Basically Sandie was told not to talk to anyone, Upton sent his statement round to a bunch of people asking if it should be changed, and that list including the person conducting the investigation.

Thank you.

And by asking re changes is the suggestion the statement was being crafted to be more damning?

Fordian · 17/07/2025 16:08

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 09:33

That article mentioning what she gets paid has really annoyed me.

Band 5 nurses like SP have almost no hope of ever achieving band 7 pay - partly because so few nursing posts at that level exist and partly because the expectations of what you need for those roles are increasingly hard to come by - cpd, funded external courses etc are all in scare supply. There are thousands of nurses who have decades of experience and multiple specialist skills being paid far less than someone who had a couple of years of COVID tracing behind her and walked into this with almost nothing more asked of her. She then gets to weigh in on their disciplinary issues (and I think NC did a good job of demonstrating that that was nowhere near the remit of her role).

Nurses on far less have to revalidate with a portfolio and pay for their registration with the nmc. This then means they are held accountable for absolutely every word, deed and action and can be struck off any time.

The NHS needs to sort out AFC. It's simply not fair to have such different expectations and requirements through what are meant to be equal bands.

Weighing in. It’s completely unfair for nurses. In radiography, it is easier to get a 6, even a 7 (my ex dept had a disproportionate number of ‘be kind’ 27-35 yr old women with no perceptible job role; and none met the job description ‘requirements’, but they all said yes to the boss). I guess there are fewer radiographers thus the B5 to 6 pay uplift is less in absolute £ terms, than paying all the nurses who serve it, B6.

However, the booking office lead, with four B3 telephones to under her, was a B5. And the radiographer with a £40k debt, 3 A levels, a B.Sc degree and a professional registration, in charge of all of a district general’s 20:00-08:00 plain film radiography, and theatre - was also on B5. Raising this crazy discrepancy is met with ‘well, maybe that B5 radiographer should apply for one of the B6/7/8 admin posts’….

I know for a fact that people are applying for such, and getting even B8 jobs in admin who do not meet a single relevant-to-the-job criterion. A couple are friends of mine who ‘ad a go- and were employed.

The NHS is rife with this. IB is one of many.

Datun · 17/07/2025 16:08

If a man explicitly tells you that he's a woman, what other recourse do you have to say no, you're not? It's got to be about the reason why he's not a woman.

It's not going to be because that dress looks too small.

Even Isla decided that the only way to determine her sex was by knowing what her chromosomes were.

Whether Sandie said it or not, it's a completely normal progression of a conversation if a man is denying he's male.

As it is pointing out that men in prisons is wrong.

You can't invent reasons why you think someone is a male.

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 16:08

IDareSay · 17/07/2025 16:07

From The Herald:
"And that's it for today session. Tomorrow's witnesses are Elspeth Pitt, Consultant in Emergency Medicine and Louise Curran, Senior Charge Nurse."

Will Elspeth Pitt know the difference between men and women? Place your bets, please!!

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 16:08

Is it me or does it appear the tribunal is running to time. Not seeing one witness saves more time.

I am looking forward to Dr Searle as the email sounds to be dynamite.

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:09

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 16:04

I'm sorry I'm desperately trying to catch up. I can't quite understand the abbreviations, what happened here?

SP was instructed not to talk about the investigation to anyone at all;

Meanwhile DU's boss emailed 19 other consultants saying that DU had been the victim of a hate incident and it was being dealt with, and DU emailed his version of events to everyone he could think of to ask them if they thought he needed to add or change anything.

There's no way to hold any kind of impartial investigation once that happens.

murasaki · 17/07/2025 16:09

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 16:07

Thank you.

And by asking re changes is the suggestion the statement was being crafted to be more damning?

I'd assume so.....

Either way, that was allowed, and the investigator shouldn't have seen draft versions or been aware that he was seeking outside input. Even GM admitted that that shouldn't have happened.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:09

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2xz2wwwwo

Given everything we've heard today, it's fascinating to see the angle the BBC editorial has decided to take today.

I feel like I'm reading a different court case!

A woman with blond hair and wearing a blue suit, walking outside. Other people - out of focus - are in the background

Nurse confronted trans doctor in 'unacceptable' manner, tribunal hears

An NHS manager has said said Sandie Peggie should have raised concerns about sharing facilities in a different way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2xz2wwwwo

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 16:09

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 16:04

I'm sorry I'm desperately trying to catch up. I can't quite understand the abbreviations, what happened here?

I'm not sure that I have a firm grasp on it either! My overview is that a whole lot of initials passed info amongst each other, mostly without recording any of it, and various initials are now clearly trying to pin the blame on some other initial..

You can read the TT transcript later, but I'm not sure it'll ever become clearer🙄

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