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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Original poster

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:23

Anyone who has been following this will be aware of the incredible work Tribunal Tweets have been doing, especially after livestreaming was ended for most of the observers. They're currently fighting to be permitted to continue to have access to the livestream themselves.

For anyone looking to provide financial assistance to a group involved in this clash between women's rights and gender ideology, Tribunal Tweets would be a good cause. As far as I know the way to do that is to subscribe to their Substack, I don't think that one-off donations can be made. If I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

OP posts:

Original poster

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:32

For anyone following Tribunal Tweets, this is their list of abbreviations used:
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R1/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment aw to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for mployees based on their characteristics.
KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

OP posts:

Original poster

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:33

Witnesses in the hearing so far:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Mr Peggie (Sandie Peggie's husband)
Nicole Peggie (Sandie Peggie's daughter)

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Beth Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Beth Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Beth Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Beth Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

OP posts:

guinnessguzzler · 20/04/2025 08:49

Thanks for the new thread @nauticant I suppose we should be grateful to NHS Fife for failing to provide all the correct information at the start and dragging the process out so we've now had the supreme court ruling in the midst of it all. Agree, Tribunal Tweets have been doing great work, as usual.

KnottyAuty · 20/04/2025 11:16

Thanks @nauticant!

@guinnessguzzler I distinctly remember JR slightly goading NC about a pause being bad and implying it would be bad for Sandie’s case… trying to pressure NC to drop/reduce the disclosure requests. Oooopsies! Looks like the pause was the best thing for Sandie and a car crash for JR’s clients

NoWordForFluffy · 20/04/2025 12:11

Re. patient safety iirc he didn't report his allegations until it was advantageous to him. I've posted this before but liability often lies with acts and omissions. If he saw someone doing something, or not doing something they should be doing, that was dangerous, negligent, incompetent he was obliged to report it immediately. Otherwise he may be able to mitigate but he's in the dock with Sandie.

This allegation is, again, where his phone notes will be interesting!

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2025 12:15

Just going to repeat the point about whether Upton lying under oath about being biologically female will ultimately affect the outcome, given the context of there now being a discussion in Fife about there now being no legal defence left...

...does this affect liability in some way?

Needspaceforlego · 20/04/2025 12:18

Thanks again for starting a new thread

Britinme · 20/04/2025 12:19

Placemarking. Thanks @nauticant.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 20/04/2025 12:20

Thanks for thread 25.

So many twists & turns still to play out & the odds increasing in SP’s favour.

PersonIrresponsible · 20/04/2025 12:23

I can see Fife offering no contest now. There's really nowhere to go as much as I'd like the shitshow to carry on, it doesn't behove anyone to keep it going.

A formal apology and an undisclosed amount of comp will be announced soon I'm sure.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 20/04/2025 12:24

NoWordForFluffy · 20/04/2025 12:11

This allegation is, again, where his phone notes will be interesting!

This is why I think the case needs to continue to a proper conclusion. The fall out for SP has been so extreme, I think she’s entitled to be fully vindicated on all counts, with a thorough assessment of every step in the events that happened, causing her detriments.

i absolutely accept if there’s a settlement offer that addresses everything to SP’s satisfaction, she’s absolutely right to accept on her terms.

who knows where we’ll be once we hit into July?

SinnerBoy · 20/04/2025 12:25

Thanks for the rollover, nauticant !

From the previous thread:

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · Today 11:57

If it emerges - and I would not be surprised if it did - that there has been collusion between Upton, hospital management and even perhaps the BMA to exaggerate and/or fabricate elements to shore up the case against SP then that takes the case to another level.

I suspect strongly that there's been collusion, not least allowing Upton to mark them's own homework, so to speak. If collusion becomes evident, I'd be surprised if it wouldn't meet the threshold for criminal conspiracy.

I'm not rubbing my hands in gleeful expectation.

Original poster

nauticant · 20/04/2025 12:25

As far as I'm aware if NHS Fife withdrew it wouldn't end proceedings. If Sandie Peggie didn't also want to give up they'd continue and people from NHS Fife would still be called on to give evidence.

OP posts:

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 20/04/2025 12:25

Thank you @nauticant for your superlative thread wrangling.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 20/04/2025 12:26

placemarking!

I hope Sandie doesn't settle, and I doubt she will, because her case (and others) will be even more interesting now and show all these organisations the real implications of the SC ruling.

Can only imagine how many more people will be logging in to view in July (if allowed).

Honestly, I am in awe of Sandie and all these other brave women.

rebmacesrevda · 20/04/2025 12:28

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 20/04/2025 12:26

placemarking!

I hope Sandie doesn't settle, and I doubt she will, because her case (and others) will be even more interesting now and show all these organisations the real implications of the SC ruling.

Can only imagine how many more people will be logging in to view in July (if allowed).

Honestly, I am in awe of Sandie and all these other brave women.

Not just logging on. The tribunal can be attended in person. I expect there'll be quite a crowd in Dundee this summer!

NoWordForFluffy · 20/04/2025 12:31

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2025 12:15

...does this affect liability in some way?

Oh, no, his delusion won't.

Liability is based on fact. Upton is male (and always has been in all ways legally, due to no GRC). Him saying he's a woman <may> affect the weight the Tribunal give to his entire evidence (as in, if he's that deluded - and admitted that there was nothing Sandie could have done which was acceptable to him, other than get undressed in front of him - then what else has he been less than truthful about), but it's not going to affect liability.

NHS Fife are both vicariously liable for his actions, as well as liable for their own (i.e. as soon as they knew he was using the women's changing room, he should've been stopped, not kowtowed to). The Workplace Regs (and subsequently the EA 2010, as clarified) are clear on this.

It would be useful to have a Court finding that woman / man / sex in the WR are the same as the EA, but it's more useful from a higher Court, and I'm not sure we'll get to appeal on this one!

CriticalCondition · 20/04/2025 12:40

Thank you @nauticant for the new thread.

At the moment Upton's financial liability for costs and damages is presumably being underwritten by his co respondents NHS Fife. If there is damaging phone evidence the combination of that and the SC judgment could well prompt NHS Fife to a settlement offer. They might see the judgment as a timely opportunity to give a just about acceptable apology which they can dress up with some corporate bollocks.

But Upton will never apologise. If that's important to Sandie the case against him continues and he's exposed financially. Depending on what's on his phone financial support from the BMA is debatable. A crowdfunder? But the focus of the case has moved from TWs in changing rooms to Sandie's professional competency.

He's screwed. But given what we've seen of him I don't think he'll realise it. He's on a mission. I hope we get to watch the final chapter.

Conxis · 20/04/2025 12:43

nauticant · 20/04/2025 12:25

As far as I'm aware if NHS Fife withdrew it wouldn't end proceedings. If Sandie Peggie didn't also want to give up they'd continue and people from NHS Fife would still be called on to give evidence.

Ooh now that would be a sight to see 🍿 I gather from a previous thread if Sandie didn’t settle she’d be responsible for Fifes costs from that point. That may be something she and her backers who don’t seem to be short of a bob or two would be prepared to do to get full justice for her

PonyPatter44 · 20/04/2025 12:44

If NHS Fife offers to settle, does Dr Upton have to agree to this as well? He made some pretty harsh allegations against SP personally as well. Could Sandie accept the settlement for the suspension, but still seek reparation for the patient safety accusation?

I'd love to be at a couple of Easter lunch tables in Edinburgh right now!

Needspaceforlego · 20/04/2025 12:45

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 20/04/2025 12:26

placemarking!

I hope Sandie doesn't settle, and I doubt she will, because her case (and others) will be even more interesting now and show all these organisations the real implications of the SC ruling.

Can only imagine how many more people will be logging in to view in July (if allowed).

Honestly, I am in awe of Sandie and all these other brave women.

Me too!

I really pray she stays strong and takes it to the full conclusion 🙏

NoWordForFluffy · 20/04/2025 12:45

But the focus of the case has moved from TWs in changing rooms to Sandie's professional competency.

This is key re the allegations against him. He has alleged this incompetence, seemingly without evidence, as apparently he didn't fulfil his obligation to report it ASAP, and it's disputed by a direct witness (who clearly also didn't report it, as they don't agree).

If NHS are going to drop the investigation / disciplinary against Sandie, they're going to be saying they don't agree with Dr Upton's evidence, which puts them in conflict.

I feel like we all need a supply of 🍿 between now and when this case ends, as it could get juicy!

NoWordForFluffy · 20/04/2025 12:47

Conxis · 20/04/2025 12:43

Show quote history

Only if not settling was unreasonable. So it depends on the terms offered in that settlement as to whether she then has a costs liability.

Needspaceforlego · 20/04/2025 12:47

Conxis · 20/04/2025 12:43

Show quote history

I don't understand how she could be liable for Fifes costs?

Surely if she doesn't settle out of court the risk is she looses the case, which as we all know is less likely to happen?

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