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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Original poster

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

IMPORTANT NOTICE. According to PRESIDENTIAL GUIDANCE ON OPEN JUSTICE IN EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL PROCEEDINGS IN SCOTLAND dated 14 July 2025:

... members of the public who are observing a hearing ... remotely, and who wish to use live, text based communications during the hearing, must apply to the Tribunal for permission.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Presidential-Guidance-Open-Justice-in-Employment-Tribunal-Proceedings-in-Scotland.pdf

The term "live, text based communications" could include Mumsnet Talk and assuming it does then we need to follow the Presidential Guidance.

OP posts:

ILoveBrum · 16/07/2025 12:10

I fully support Sandie Peggie!

Original poster

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:11

Anyone who has been following this will be aware of the incredible work Tribunal Tweets have been doing, especially after livestreaming was ended for most of the observers. Added to this, it seems they've managed the fight the corner for continuing public access very effectively.

For anyone looking to provide financial assistance to a group involved in this clash between women's rights and gender ideology, Tribunal Tweets would be a good cause. As far as I know the way to do that is to subscribe to their Substack, I don't think that one-off donations can be made. If I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

OP posts:

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 12:28

NC - stenographers have been going for more than an hour, they are do a break, lets take lunch.

Does this mean that there is an official court stenographer

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 12:28

I've made a one-off donation to TT before.

Original poster

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:28

For anyone following Tribunal Tweets, this is their list of abbreviations used:
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R1/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

OP posts:

FingleGlen · 16/07/2025 12:28

The dog is getting a very quick trot now.....

wheretoyougonow · 16/07/2025 12:28

They are taking a lunch break as the stenographers have been working for an hour?! I’ll have that job!

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 16/07/2025 12:28

Nice bit of retconning by IB when she refers to respecting GC beliefs

I struggle to believe that happened.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:29

Why was noone taking minutes of the meetings?

I cannot believe this evidence. It makes NHS Fife look like a bunch of amateurs!

hollyblueivy · 16/07/2025 12:29

NHS Fife have spent over £220k defending itself. Who on earth has agreed to these costs being incurred?

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 12:30

'Those who have been responsible for bringing about this farce should now be held to account. The credibility of Fife Health Board is in shatters. And the taxpayer is already out of pocket to the tune of £220,000, a figure likely to rise significantly. Totally unacceptable'

https://x.com/AlexNeilSNP/status/1945400560615588151

Alex Neil, former SNP Health secretary

Original poster

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:30

Witnesses in the hearing so far with skeleton chronology:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Mr Peggie (Sandie Peggie's husband)
Nicole Peggie (Sandie Peggie's daughter)

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)
Beth Upton

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Beth Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Beth Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Beth Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Beth Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

a break of many months

Wednesday 14 July 2025
Isla Bumba

OP posts:

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 12:32

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 16/07/2025 12:28

Nice bit of retconning by IB when she refers to respecting GC beliefs

I struggle to believe that happened.

I wonder if she can distinguish between respecting GC beliefs (which as far as I can see is relevant to this claim) and the law on single sex spaces and the hospital's duty to understand it (I think also relevant to the claim)

lechiffre55 · 16/07/2025 12:33

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 16/07/2025 12:28

Nice bit of retconning by IB when she refers to respecting GC beliefs

I struggle to believe that happened.

I think they've seen the writing on the wall, it's finally sinking in, and they are scared. They realise they have a problem. The retconning is an acknowledgement of that. Abandon ship, every man for himself.

Greyskybluesky · 16/07/2025 12:34

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 16/07/2025 12:28

Nice bit of retconning by IB when she refers to respecting GC beliefs

I struggle to believe that happened.

Yes, that bit of memory was surprisingly crystal clear

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 12:34

lechiffre55 · 16/07/2025 12:33

Show quote history

I'm interested to see whether they will explain how they showed respect for GC beliefs in practice.

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 12:34

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 16/07/2025 12:28

Nice bit of retconning by IB when she refers to respecting GC beliefs

I struggle to believe that happened.

If it did, it didn't translate into practice.

CriticalCondition · 16/07/2025 12:35

wheretoyougonow · 16/07/2025 12:28

They are taking a lunch break as the stenographers have been working for an hour?! I’ll have that job!

TBF it requires very intense concentration to get down every word accurately. If it wasn't lunchtime I expect there would have been a short break of just a few minutes.

murasaki · 16/07/2025 12:35

Looking forward to NC. I do feel a bit sorry for IB, she was clearly out of her depth, but not that sorry. Fife seem prepared to shove everyone under the bus. Probably including Upton eventually.

InvisibleDragon · 16/07/2025 12:36

Going off TT, I don't think IB comes across too badly. She is aware they didn't have a policy around trans staff members and was involved in a working group to discuss creating one. That included reviewing policy documents from other health boards, but the conclusion was to wait for the universal "One for Scotland" template rather than cobbling together their own based on documents from other health boards.

When asked for advice following the datix, she referred onward to HR rather than passing comment herself. So far, so professional.

Did want to point out at that the meetings she attended, not everyone could attend at short notice. I feel this is a common problem in clinical settings: clinical staff with patient contact can't attend a short notice meeting because it is in their clinic time or they are required to be on their wards as part of core staffing numbers. So decisions that impact clinical policy/practice can be made by predominantly non-clinical staff, with no practice experience of how that will work in the clinical environment.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 16/07/2025 12:37

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 12:34

I'm interested to see whether they will explain how they showed respect for GC beliefs in practice.

Show quote history

Hopefully NC will lead us through a thorough dissection of IB’s ‘understanding’ of what this entailed.

SternJoyousBee · 16/07/2025 12:38

Funny I don’t recall any mention of balance of rights from the NHSFife case or witnesses in Feb? Could it be that that has only been something that is being considered since April 16th?

ThatPithySheep · 16/07/2025 12:38

hollyblueivy · 16/07/2025 12:29

NHS Fife have spent over £220k defending itself. Who on earth has agreed to these costs being incurred?

That is the cost of their external legal advice only, and only to date. Not the cost of the internal lawyers, or the staff who have been involved, or the ridiculous disciplinary panel etc.

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 12:40

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 12:28

I've made a one-off donation to TT before.

Sorry, I just checked, I'm a subscriber! So maybe it's not possible to make a one off donation.

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