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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Original poster

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:44

Witnesses in the hearing so far with skeleton chronology:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Mr Peggie (Sandie Peggie's husband)
Nicole Peggie (Sandie Peggie's daughter)

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)
Beth Upton

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Beth Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Beth Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Beth Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Beth Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

a break of many months

Wednesday 16 July 2025
Isla Bumba

Thursday 17 July 2025
Gillian Malone

OP posts:

Original poster

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:44

Anyone who has been following this will be aware of the incredible work Tribunal Tweets have been doing, especially after livestreaming was ended for most of the observers. Added to this, it seems they've managed the fight the corner for continuing public access very effectively.

For anyone looking to provide financial assistance to a group involved in this clash between women's rights and gender ideology, Tribunal Tweets would be a good cause. As far as I know the way to do that is to subscribe to their Substack, I don't think that one-off donations can be made. If I'm wrong on that, please correct me.

OP posts:

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 15:45

Naomi Cunningham is on fire today

Original poster

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:45

For anyone following Tribunal Tweets, this is their list of abbreviations used:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R1/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
IB - Isla Bumba
GM - Gillian Malone
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

OP posts:

zanahoria · 17/07/2025 16:09

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 15:45

Naomi Cunningham is on fire today

Not surprised.

She must have been raring to go after hearing the other side make fools of themselves

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:17

TBF there's not a high bar here to compare Naomi Cunningham to is there?

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:18

For me the best part of today was Malone stating that Pete the Plumber wouldn't be allowed in the female changing rooms. That it wouldn't fly and would be misconduct even if he declared he was a woman.

Why Upton but not Pete?

What a clanger.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 16:18

Still running a little behind on the last thread, missed the end there but wanted to say thanks again to @nauticant, @Justabaker and the TT team, @BezMills & @NotAGentleReminder for today

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 16:19

SP was told in writing not to discuss the investigation

Is there a document where DU is told that the investigation is confidential?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:19

Once you tell a lie big enough and get away with it, there's no incentive to come clean.

Arran2024 · 17/07/2025 16:20

This looks like a good summary of today's proceedings

Nursing chief 'can't recall' risk assessment that led to nurse's suspension in trans doctor row https://mol.im/a/14915383

Jcak · 17/07/2025 16:20

just sitting with my coffee catching up with the thread!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 16:21

As an aside, I believe there are a lot of doctors (I know some) who think the whole TWAW is bullshit because, you know, 'biology' is kind of the name of the game in medicine. So, there will have been doctors cc'd into that email thinking this is bullshit but it didn't lead them to actually do something about it, to defend Sandie.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:22

Tomorrow's witnesses are Dr. Pitt and Louise Curran

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:22

@prh47bridge wrote this at the end of the last thread, and I thought it was interesting to respond to:

I really don't get this idea of TRAs saying that they don't know what sex they are because they haven't tested their chromosomes. They must know that a test of Upton's chromosomes would show he is male, which doesn't fit their argument. If chromosomes determine sex (which they do for everyone apart from the small minority with DSD), their fantasy fails.

I think the argument they would make is that by 'your' (The SC's) definition of sex, I can't be sure, because I haven't had my chromosomes tested. But by 'my' definition of sex, I am a woman and so is DU.

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

Datun · 17/07/2025 16:23

To me, Upton asking if he should change his statement to people who would have no idea whether it was accurate or not, was tactical.

He was lording it, making out that all these people were either in a position to corroborate what he said, or blindly agree with his version.

Him asking shall I change it, and not getting the response how the hell should we know, we weren't there, was them being complicit. At least in his eyes. And mine too, to be honest.

He's just trying to lock them in.

Meanwhile, Sandie is told to shut the fuck up or else.

To me, the imbalance is so wrong, so bloody Medieval, I can't understand why it's not criminal.

moto748e · 17/07/2025 16:28

Surely, quite apart from anything else, if you menstruate, say, then you're a woman. Because no man can. So I don't see why Isla had her doubts. Or, to put it another way, she's talking bollocks.

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 16:29

GM No, don't think DU did harass. Unprofessional behaviour on part of SP.
J Dr Pitt tomorrow and Louise Curran.
J Do we need to call [missed] just to say we have taken his evidence - their evidence I should say to be more accurate.
J Normal time tomorrow.

No Vic Valentine?!

Have we encountered Dr Elspeth Pitt before? She is listed as "Wellbeing & peer support lead; FRCEM Examiner" on the Fife website.

I bet these Drs are delighted to be hauled up in front of an ET.

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 16:29

Who is being excused tomorrow and their evidence being taken as read? Is it Dr Elspeth Pitt as appeared on the previous thread? I didn't catch the name but the judge referred first to 'his' and then corrected himself to 'their'.

Does that line up with what we know of 'Elspeth'? And what was their role in all of this? I recall there were a couple of walk-on parts where people comforted/escorted Upton across a carpark but can't remember if either of them was EP. And I don't recall having the impression EP was male.

Keenovay · 17/07/2025 16:29

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:22

@prh47bridge wrote this at the end of the last thread, and I thought it was interesting to respond to:

I was also typing my reply to @prh47bridge below when the thread closed...

TRAs appear to state that you must not/cannot assume someone's sex from their outward appearance..but fundamentally, this is just a way to say sex doesn't matter at all - all that counts is a person's self-declared gender. The chromosomes are a red herring, I think. It's an instruction/threat to not look under the hood or "obsess over someone's genitals" (as they are fond of accusing us of doing).

Happy for someone less muddled than I to explain this, preferably in a Fife accent.

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 16:29

moto748e · 17/07/2025 16:28

Surely, quite apart from anything else, if you menstruate, say, then you're a woman. Because no man can. So I don't see why Isla had her doubts. Or, to put it another way, she's talking bollocks.

Lady bollocks, aye?

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 16:29

The BBC headline
Nurse confronted trans doctor in 'unacceptable' manner, tribunal hears
is incredibly deceitful.
Yes the tribunal heard that; they also heard it admitted that SP had not been aggressive and had not raised her voice; and furthermore it was the NHS Fife witness's opinion that there was no acceptable way to challenge DrU's presence in the women's CR, because it was inherently discriminatory to do so.

And underpinning it all is the fact that it has since been acknowledged that there is no evidence that SP said those things at all, in any manner acceptable or 'unacceptable'.

But the headline stands, and some of the the mud sticks.
Nurse confronted trans doctor in 'unacceptable' manner, tribunal hears

ImpPeril · 17/07/2025 16:31

@GreenFriedTomato my apologies, had misunderstood from previous posts that nurses weren't in band that high.

FWIIW I also believe that they are all lying, or at least protecting a very biased version of the truth less by JR. Also it isn't an excuse, integrity matters, I just have sympathy that she appears weak, trapped and institutionalised. Of the people I've 'listened to' through TT so far I don't believe that she believes in this.

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 16:32

Any idea how much it costs to process a sex test/cheek swab thingy? £50?

It would have saved NHS Fife a lot of time and expense if they'd just asked all their staff needing to use changing rooms to do a supervised test.

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:32

moto748e · 17/07/2025 16:28

Surely, quite apart from anything else, if you menstruate, say, then you're a woman. Because no man can. So I don't see why Isla had her doubts. Or, to put it another way, she's talking bollocks.

Yes, complete bollocks.

It's like me saying that I can't say I'm not a billionaire just because I haven't checked my bank balance this morning. Perhaps a better way to ask the question is to invoke the criminal standard of proof:

Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, you are a woman?

Alternatively, do you have any reasonable doubt that you are a woman?

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