NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

I do wonder how many Scots are on here and where we're all from. It would be interesting (but I suspect unwieldy) to find out.

Well I'm a Fifer still living in Fife!

I'm not from these shores originally but my home country is seriously captured on this topic. So thankful to be in the UK.

I've identified half a dozen or so but I suspect many lurkers. I'm from Edinburgh, not far from Holyrood, and I'm listening out for the sound of the good people of Fife marching on Parliament... (pitchfork emoji not available)

The lack of any written advice and decision paperwork is truly shocking.

They obviously didn't expect someone like SP to be so tenacious

From Fife.

Does Baloney, as Head of Nursing, even have to use the changing room anymore?

She's happy stripping in front of a biological man at midnight then...

At least ED, Sandie's management thought Sandie had a reasonable issue.

She should be sacked based on this shit show.

I find the management bods in NHS Fife to be utterly detached from the medical staff and day to day stuff. Why wouldn't Isla Bumba have visited the changing room? Why doesn't GM, head of nursing, know one of the senior nurses?

When i worked in a big bank, our director, who was in charge of thousands of staff, met with everyone, even the most junior staff, on a rolling basis. When I first started, the chief executive used to go round every head office dep at Xmas and shake everyone's hand - he visited all the various locations to do this.

Yet here we have GM sitting in some office, not knowing who Sandy Peggie is. I find that disgraceful.

Is there perhaps some sort of carbon monoxide leak at NHS Fife? Because the amount of information their staff ‘can’t recall’ must surely be a worry to them. GM seems to be particularly badly affected by it.

I'd be surprised if she gets within sneezing distance of a patient

What management bods?

There is no management.

Just people paid to sit ticking endless meaningless boxes and not take responsibility.

I can see why they wanted to pretend this initial investigation didn't happen

From TT

NC A few qs re reminder to C not to discuss case. [to doc] template letter notifying employee to i/x - includes should avoid discussing. Standard in disc letters. Expect to be used in Fife
GM y
NC Would expect disc to be finalised in a few weeks
NC So reasonable to ask not to discuss if invest happening in normal period
GM y
NC Looking at suspension letter - don't see there any mention of confidentiality in that letter.
JR will take you back to it if necessary.
GM not there
NC Nearest is this - shouldn't access work email / workplace - but nothing about confidentiality
GM no J/NC [reads / discussing re enclosed guide to suspension] J second page seems to be blank
NC letter doesn't seem to be filled in
J Do we know if enc guide was sent
NC No. But may not matter. [to guide
NC Was this the doc that was or should have been enc with the letter
GM y
NC No mention there of confidentiality either
J I think earlier it was said it appeared in a template letter
NC That q was wrong [reads c confidentiality]
J Says must not enter workplace
NC And in addition must not discuss. NC If it was enc with suspension letter, it would have been tucked away in notes and not on face of letter.
NC [to letter 12 April, AG to Sp notifying AG's involvement in i/x and that has the boiler plate c not discussing
NC That's the first time SP gets a letter which on its face states c confidentiality.
GM yes
NC [KS email of 29 Dec to all consultants - 29 cons?
GM Under 20
GM To all of them setting out Beth's side of story. Fair to say that by time all consultants in EDept got this confidentiality in the case has been lost.
GM I don't think Dr Searle should have sent that to all consultants.
NC KS on 12 Jan email to DU, ED who was i/x at time, cc to [names] - subject PC incident. Says ED taken lead on incident. DU replies asking what it wanted in statement
NC Various exchanges, all the ppl copied in. DU sends statement cc to all ppl asking if needs changes to statement. Exchanges inc person i/x ing and the complainant - confidentiality and integrity hopelessly compromised.
GM [agrees shouldn't have been done in this way]

Please no more Anvils. I'll give you Searle, I swear it. Look, I'm giving her up. Take it.

Fifer : shouldnae have been done that way aye? Yer fuckin right it shouldnae. And here we are, wasting a rare drying day in a Dundee court instead of getting a washing hung oot. The only thing getting hung oot the day is you Gill.

They'll just go into QUANGOs or charities. (Escpecially Scottish ones.) No need to interract with the real world at all.

Hello from Auld Reekie 👋

Expat Yorkshirewoman, been in Edinburgh 35 years...OH from Lanarkshire 😊

It's the NHS.

They deal with chancers and grifters every day.

Even in Fife.

I assume calling him Beth is to paint a picture of a feminine ladylike lady?

From TT

NC and shouldn't have been copied in this way, compromised integrity of process. And ED, KS, Louise Curren and Lauren Harris were all potential witnesses.
GM [general agreement]
NC doc 3 July. This reacted to stories appearing in press
GM yes
NC Prohibition on discussing Wasn't to protect integrity of i/x cos that was gone.

Fifer : aye

Suggest it's to prevent SP talking to colleagues re man using f cr
GM I don't agree
NC Even if not its purpose, it was the effect. SP couldn't get tog with colleagues also unhappy re this

Fifer : trying to paint wee Sondie as the bad yin, it's no on. There wid be not a one ay they nurses wantin to get changed wi thon Dr Upton. They're a feart to say that tho. They've seen how one of the most respected nurses in the Vic got it ticht. They're sayin nowt.

NC Various exchanges, all the ppl copied in. DU sends statement cc to all ppl asking if needs changes to statement. Exchanges inc person i/x ing and the complainant - confidentiality and integrity hopelessly compromised.
GM [agrees shouldn't have been done in this way

Expert dismantling continues..

It's affirming isn't it? He wants to be seen as a woman first, doctor second. Which is telling because I would think most female doctors would want to be seen as doctors first and foremost and referred to in that way (in a work context)

Badly run volunteer organisations are run better than NHS Fife.

Our NHS clinical managers (ie people who are clinicians) are usually reasonable, but I've seen some utter shite from pure managers & admin staff - awful rotas drawn up by someone who isn't clinical, asking speciality A to take over service B because we have a slightly similar name (think paediatric surgeon doing paediatric psychiatry). Doctors in a different specialty get silo'd very quickly - the key is to remember that you know nothing about how other specialties work and not to jump in with crap ideas.
It's like managers on 9-5 trying to force staff (mostly women) on long shifts to commute by public transport to a hospital on the bypass next to a dodgy council estate. Just no insight, empathy or intelligent thought.

NC Wasn't to protect integrity of i/x cos that was gone. Suggest it's to prevent SP talking to colleagues re man using f cr
GM I don't agree
NC Even if not its purpose, it was the effect. SP couldn't get tog with colleagues also unhappy..

That's a new [to me] angle, I hadn't thought that the 'confidentiality' would stop SP finding out if other women had similar objections to DrU in the CR.

Different GM. The one appearing today is Gillian Malone.