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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
chilling19 · 17/07/2025 14:29

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 14:21

Upton said in evidence, under oath, that nothing Sandi could have said would have been acceptable. I'm paraphrasing. He was a troublemaker looking for an excuse.

Yes, which is why I have seen some people on social media saying a pronoun on the CV/application form results in the bin being employed. Too much hassle, as is ably demonstrated by this shitshow.

maltravers · 17/07/2025 14:30

You can’t ask DU to be inconvenienced! He’s (a) holy caste of trans (b) a man (c) a doctor.

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 14:30

A few years ago a woman I know asked for same sex care at her local trust in SW England , but was told it couldn't be guaranteed, as the Trust didn't record the biological sex of their staff, only gender . So it's England too, not just Scotland, with the lunatics in charge of the NHS...

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 17/07/2025 14:32

"Bet they have been coached to say Beth when referring to Upton that way it’s harder to ‘misgender’ him."

Poor move imo if so as it also suggests a familiarity and potential bias toward him that may or may not have been there.

Sorry I'm lagging well behind today.

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:33

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 14:30

A few years ago a woman I know asked for same sex care at her local trust in SW England , but was told it couldn't be guaranteed, as the Trust didn't record the biological sex of their staff, only gender . So it's England too, not just Scotland, with the lunatics in charge of the NHS...

It's mad. If you don't record the sex of the people who work for you, you can't record sex discrimination.

maltravers · 17/07/2025 14:33

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 14:30

A few years ago a woman I know asked for same sex care at her local trust in SW England , but was told it couldn't be guaranteed, as the Trust didn't record the biological sex of their staff, only gender . So it's England too, not just Scotland, with the lunatics in charge of the NHS...

Nice to know the patients’ interests are front and centre of everything they do (not).

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 14:33

Shut up JR (paraphrasing the judge)

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 14:34

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 14:29

Yes, which is why I have seen some people on social media saying a pronoun on the CV/application form results in the bin being employed. Too much hassle, as is ably demonstrated by this shitshow.

TRAs are their own worst enemies. If DU was reasonable and flexible, he could have just said to Sandie "I'm sorry to be distressing you. I did ask before I came in here" and left to change elsewhere.

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 14:34

What sort of staff grade would GM have been? Presumably a bit higher up the foodchain than IB? I just find it extraordinary that somebody in charge of a lot of staff (especially one who is suspended and armed with an MSP and solicitor) wouldn't have thought to speak to Health and safety and a senior HR bod/NHS Legal.

Hoardasurass · 17/07/2025 14:34

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 14:33

Shut up JR (paraphrasing the judge)

With an added answer the damn question GM

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 14:35

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 14:29

The lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

Na.

If they'd just taken over the asylum we'd be fine.

The problem is they escaped the asylum and took over everywhere else.

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 14:35

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 14:34

TRAs are their own worst enemies. If DU was reasonable and flexible, he could have just said to Sandie "I'm sorry to be distressing you. I did ask before I came in here" and left to change elsewhere.

But he wouldn't have got any validation from doing that.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 14:36

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:33

It's mad. If you don't record the sex of the people who work for you, you can't record sex discrimination.

And that will eventually surface because it will eventually come up in a legal issue.

They won't escape it.

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:36

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 14:35

But he wouldn't have got any validation from doing that.

And, unfortunately, it has been noted that many of these men enjoy the nonconsenting part.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 14:37

A do it to Julia Isla moment from GM

NC SP's sol said SP needed ss space to change in. Why wouldn't is be solution to problem to give Beth single occupancy room for him to change in
GM Dept took advice from DEI lead and so it wasn't what we could do.

RobinEllacotStrike · 17/07/2025 14:38

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 14:30

A few years ago a woman I know asked for same sex care at her local trust in SW England , but was told it couldn't be guaranteed, as the Trust didn't record the biological sex of their staff, only gender . So it's England too, not just Scotland, with the lunatics in charge of the NHS...

this is an interesting deep dive into NHS & sex data recording by Caroline Ffiske
They gave up on 'sex' some time ago.

dailysceptic.org/2025/05/13/the-nhs-no-longer-recognises-the-reality-of-biological-sex/

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 14:39

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 14:29

Yes, which is why I have seen some people on social media saying a pronoun on the CV/application form results in the bin being employed. Too much hassle, as is ably demonstrated by this shitshow.

I know a few people who will say that discreetly now, because they want to safeguard from activism. They aren't bothered about inclusion. In fact they are otherwise exceptionally inclusive in every respect (including dealing with people who say they are trans). What they don't want is a troublemaker who does activism in the workplace - and that could relate to any subject ultimately, if it's disruptive and confrontational.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 14:40

From TT

NC More text added by Lottie Miles J Doyle seems to have sent pre-pop form and she has added in background details
GM Have to ask LM but not what I would expect
NC Would seem risk assessment been made after decision made re suspension
GM? re sss cr. part of your job to look after nurses welfare
GM y
NC So if you thought that it was an affront to dignity etc of your nurses to let a t man use the cr it would up to you to speak up about that?
GM yes
NC LM email to you re mtg with SP 7 March. LM records SP asks why DU couldn't be moved/ asked to change elsewhere. That would have been solution to problem.
GM SP was suspended cos of all the things in the dat ix, not just that
NC SP's sol said SP needed ss space to change in. Why wouldn't is be solution to problem to give Beth single occupancy room for him to change in

This anvil seems smaller, but heavier. As if it's not smaller, just far away. It seems to hover for a second like in Road Runner, then BANG it's on the floor.
The next anvil hasn't arrived yet. GM's eyes shift around. Is it over?

GM Dept took advice from DEI lead and so it wasn't what we could do.
NC Would your view be this is a pragmatic solution
GM We took advice
NC But the practicalities - refusing to stop allowing DU to use cr means SP at work couldn't avoid possibility - she couldn't be sure would not meet men in there
JR asked q many times
J (Big Sond) not really answered

Fifer : The big man is no havin it. HE'S just dropped the next anvil. It was in his piece box the whole time.

NC SP couldn't be sure wouldn't meet a man in f cr
JR Not c men using f cr, but tw
GM We took advice, Beth, t member of staff could use facility
NC No reliably ss (biological) space for SP and colleague to change in
GM If we are talking about biological sex, then yes NC SS spaces for staff provision is conduct related to sex. That is obvious.
JR [objects]
J reasonable q to ask

Fifer Big Sond getting his size thirteens out and stamping his fit.

NC This is to do with sex
GM Guidance re t member staff was to allow to use f cr so not re sex
NC Women who are G C / sex realists
JR May need to understand what GI theory is
NC That gender matters more than sex, depends not on what body is like but how envisage themselves in their head. This lay behind IB's guidance.
JR Not IB approach in her evidence. She relied on the code of practice.

Fifer : ca'in whatever thon lassie was saying yisterday "evidence" well, aye, mibbe. but naw, really. naw. mon noo.

NC Try again. Women who believe bio sex is real and sometimes matters, my see t id men as men, not woman. They still see a man if that's what they think.
GM yes
NC So if you provide ss bio spaces for staff, it's to do with SP G C belief - that sex matters
GM don't understand q
NC I'll leave it there.
NC It was obvious re suspension/ d/x process that SP was unhappy. That she felt f cr being used by man intimidating and humiliating.
GM Yes, on Xmas eve
NC ED doesn't doubt genuineness of SP feelings

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:40

RobinEllacotStrike · 17/07/2025 14:38

this is an interesting deep dive into NHS & sex data recording by Caroline Ffiske
They gave up on 'sex' some time ago.

dailysceptic.org/2025/05/13/the-nhs-no-longer-recognises-the-reality-of-biological-sex/

I just asked AI, because I wasn't entirely sure, and it's illegal not to record sex in terms of pay gap, reporting, if not strictly for EDI.

So does that mean they're breaking the law?

DeanElderberry · 17/07/2025 14:40

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:33

It's mad. If you don't record the sex of the people who work for you, you can't record sex discrimination.

That is always the first part of my answer when the TRAs come along asking 'how does this even affect you?'.

Once sex is not recorded, all the rights women spent over a century campaigning and fighting for are lost. Because women no longer exist.

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 14:41

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 14:39

I know a few people who will say that discreetly now, because they want to safeguard from activism. They aren't bothered about inclusion. In fact they are otherwise exceptionally inclusive in every respect (including dealing with people who say they are trans). What they don't want is a troublemaker who does activism in the workplace - and that could relate to any subject ultimately, if it's disruptive and confrontational.

Yes, we have seen that the TRAs cause massive problems for their own community all the time.

nauticant · 17/07/2025 14:41

It's interesting to see how GM really struggles sometimes to articulate her answers because she knows she's got to stay within the bounds of acceptable speech according to gender identity ideology, but she doesn't know where those bounds are and knows she doesn't know.

OP posts:
rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 14:44

The big man is no havin it. HE'S just dropped the next anvil. It was in his piece box the whole time.

😂😂😂😂😂

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 14:44

NC I'm giving you the opportunity to say if you think it was ?un/reasonable for SP to object to the [inclusion of DU in f cr]. It's okay if you don't want to take that opportunity.
GM [declines] [short break]

GM declines...

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