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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 14:16

Just caught from the morning 😅
My big rake has been renamed Big Gill.

Rightsraptor · 17/07/2025 14:16

I'm still waiting to get in! What's going on?

BettyBooper · 17/07/2025 14:18

I can't follow the current line of questioning. What is NC getting at?

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 14:19

Can we rename Gillian Malone, Gillian Baloney please?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 17/07/2025 14:19

FatCyclist · 17/07/2025 14:11

My god. This is quite utterly unbelievable. That NHS CONSULTANTS can behave so utterly appallingly really fucks with my head.

Do you remember how Wendy Savage was treated by her colleagues?

saveforthat · 17/07/2025 14:20

Yaay back in

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 14:20

From TT:

J Like to explain to remote observers we have discovered changing layout doesn't work. Most important is for witness to be comfortable for giving evidence and for us to see and hear.
NC Back to Jan. Did ED tell you it had been established no risk of SP and DU being together

GMDon't recall. Not my decision to suspend her
NC In email ED says been no change. Angie Shepherd wants to tell SP
[missed sound v bad ]
NC Email you to Melanie Jorgensen. Ask to review suspension. A misspeak?
J Seems so
NC Was intention that Lottie Miles would conduct genuine

GM Lottie was taking over this case and do the four-week suspension review.
NC No notes
GM no
NC No email confirming agreed?
GM No. we only work two doors away
[missed]
NC [to doc]
GM reading

NC That was background. MG had written protesting suspension.
GM Not my understanding. Policy was that suspension reviewed.
NC This letter didn't cause review
GM Not seen letter before. It's part of policy to review suspensions

NC [to doc] Letter from Margaret Gribbon [MG], forwarded from Angie Shepherd's inbox. Exchange with Adam Watson. You said just now you hadn't seen this letter...
GM AS's PA Sent it on and I immediately forwarded it
NC
NC We can see was legal advice as result of that letter

NC MJ email Feb to you - anything further on this suspension being lifted? Looks as though decision taken that suspension to be lifted. You are saying that MJ means anything further on suspension being lifted means another more on suspension.

NC Your email to Lottie Miles was to tell her suspension was to be lifted
GM Don't agree
NC That decision to lift suspension was cos MG was objecting to suspension on no proper grounds.
GM [missed]
NC Friday 8 March you to MJ - further risk assessment supported returning to workplace on different shift pattern.
NC But had been established by end Dec no overlap between DU/SP shifts. Always poss to keep them apart?
GM DOn't recall
NC SP assures will be professional. You don't suggest she would have failed to give you that assurance
GM This asks Sandie if she can do that

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 14:21

@BettyBooper Think NC is saying that it was never necessary to suspend Sandie. They just did so as a 'punishment' for her GC beliefs. (am not a lawyer though- may have misunderstood)

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 14:21

Upton said in evidence, under oath, that nothing Sandi could have said would have been acceptable. I'm paraphrasing. He was a troublemaker looking for an excuse.

Hoardasurass · 17/07/2025 14:21

Igneococcus · 17/07/2025 14:06

Kirkcaldy is right by the sea, or does that stretch of water still count as the Forth?

It's the forth

BezMills · 17/07/2025 14:22

From TT

J (Big Sond) Like to explain to remote observers we have discovered changing layout doesn't work. Most important is for witness to be comfortable for giving evidence and for us to see and hear.

Fifer : Did ah no tell ye that thon judge wasnae changing the layoot. Nae doobt!

NC Back to Jan. Did ED tell you it had been established no risk of SP and DU being together
GM Don't recall. Not my decision to suspend her
NC In email ED says been no change. Angie Shepherd wants to tell SP
[missed sound v bad ]
NC Email you to Melanie Jorgensen. Ask to review suspension. A misspeak?
J Seems so
NC Was intention that Lottie Miles would conduct genuine process
GM Lottie was taking over this case and do the four-week suspension review.
NC No notes
GM no

There is a very brief flash of pity in NC's eyes as she reaches into her TARDIS case for another Anvil. She shakes her head imperceptibly. Why keep fighting this? I have a portal to the Anvil Dimension. It's not going to stop until I stop it.

NC No email confirming agreed?
GM No. we only work two doors away [missed]
NC [to doc]
GM reading
NC That was background. MG had written protesting suspension.
GM Not my understanding. Policy was that suspension reviewed.
NC This letter didn't cause review
GM Not seen letter before. It's part of policy to review suspensions.

Anvil drops. Too easy. Didn't even read their own discovery submissions. NC seems almost sad.

Another Anvil appears in her palm instantly. Not even a transporter flash. This one was Displaced using technology far beyond mere Star Trek.

NC [to doc] Letter from Margaret Gribbon [MG], forwarded from Angie Shepherd's inbox. Exchange with Adam Watson. You said just now you hadn't seen this letter...
GM AS's PA Sent it on and I immediately forwarded it
NC We can see was legal advice as result of that letter
NC (cont) MJ email Feb to you - anything further on this suspension being lifted? Looks as though decision taken that suspension to be lifted. You are saying that MJ means anything further on suspension being lifted means another more on suspension.
NC (cont) Your email to Lottie Miles was to tell her suspension was to be lifted
GM Don't agree

CLANG
Anvil 2 hits the floor.
Anvil 3 shimmers into existence before the echo fades

NC That decision to lift suspension was cos MG was objecting to suspension on no proper grounds.
GM [missed]
NC Friday 8 March you to MJ - further risk assessment supported returning to workplace on different shift pattern.
NC But had been established by end Dec no overlap between DU/SP shifts. Always poss to keep them apart?
GM DOn't recall
NC SP assures will be professional. You don't suggest she would have failed to give you that assurance
GM This asks Sandie if she can do that

Fifer : haud on noo. Yer asking wee Sondie, cool as a cucumber, runs the floor like clockwork, all five fit twa of her, wi thirty year of experience, if she can be professional? Sake, min. Gie yersel peace.

BettyBooper · 17/07/2025 14:22

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 14:21

@BettyBooper Think NC is saying that it was never necessary to suspend Sandie. They just did so as a 'punishment' for her GC beliefs. (am not a lawyer though- may have misunderstood)

Right, yes that makes sense, thanks!

All the abbreviations started to boggle my head 🤣

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:22

I'm sure this isn't the first tribunal where witnesses have claimed that even raising the issue was discriminatory, either.

I bet this, more than the Supreme Court judgement, will have managers frantically updating their DEI policies, left right and centre.

It's dawning on them, that they are just, one hundred percent, unequivocally, stone coldly, rock solidly, eye wateringly expensively wrong.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 14:23

Sorry @BezMills wasn't sure if you were still about, I'll leave it to you coz you're doing grand 😁

guinnessguzzler · 17/07/2025 14:25

Great chat, thanks to you all.

It's a wonder anything gets done at NHS Fife with that absolute shower running the show. Actually embarrassing for them all.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 14:25

From TT

NC Email Jamie Doyle to L Miles, with attachments. Look as suspension risk assessment -third column, restricted to working alongside senior charge nurse. Text populates the table. JD send pre-populated form to LM
GM I'd say it's a blank assessment
NC But there are specific pre-
discussion about email sent by J Doyle to Lottie Miles about risk assessment form, whether pre-populated by J Doyle or not]

@NebulousDogWhistleIsReality

I'm kind of enjoying it, but happy to step aside and let someone else take over!

BezMills · 17/07/2025 14:25

I did say I would do the morning, then decided I'm going to sit here all afternoon too, apparently!

angelinawasrobbed · 17/07/2025 14:28

New, we want the (Michelle) Fifer moments! You’re stuck

viques · 17/07/2025 14:28

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

In some ways I feel sorry for the witnesses yet to appear. They are sitting in their cells , metaphorically speaking, well aware that outside the window, or more appropriately inside the tribunal, the gibbets are being strung with fresh rope, the wood is being piled around the stakes and the air is heavy with the desperate miasma of their former colleagues whose wretched bodies are even now being ignominiously dragged to a common grave of future unemployability.

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 14:28

Biscofffan · 17/07/2025 13:52

My thoughts exactly. They have been dragged into this toxic world of lies and are now suffering the consequences. But of course they are all women and are therefore utterly expendable. The patriarchy strikes again. Where are the men who most likely hold all the most important jobs in NHS Fife? Hiding behind the women. All this stuff needed good lawyers' oversight and proper policies and procedures. And fairness for women. If I was GM or any of the others involved in this travesty I think my mental health would be absolutely shot. Dog-eat-dog workplace, that's for sure.

I worry about the MH of IB, shes been pure grilled by one of the best. And her responses won't be forgotten for a very long time.
Plus a very memorable name.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 14:28

BezMills · 17/07/2025 14:25

From TT

NC Email Jamie Doyle to L Miles, with attachments. Look as suspension risk assessment -third column, restricted to working alongside senior charge nurse. Text populates the table. JD send pre-populated form to LM
GM I'd say it's a blank assessment
NC But there are specific pre-
discussion about email sent by J Doyle to Lottie Miles about risk assessment form, whether pre-populated by J Doyle or not]

@NebulousDogWhistleIsReality

I'm kind of enjoying it, but happy to step aside and let someone else take over!

No no! I think we're all enjoying your wee additions, keep up the good work! 😁

angelinawasrobbed · 17/07/2025 14:28

I mean Bev!! Bloody autocarrot

Datun · 17/07/2025 14:28

viques · 17/07/2025 14:28

In some ways I feel sorry for the witnesses yet to appear. They are sitting in their cells , metaphorically speaking, well aware that outside the window, or more appropriately inside the tribunal, the gibbets are being strung with fresh rope, the wood is being piled around the stakes and the air is heavy with the desperate miasma of their former colleagues whose wretched bodies are even now being ignominiously dragged to a common grave of future unemployability.

Bloody hell, the women on here are absolutely wasted doing whatever they're doing, unless they are full-time writers

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 14:29

Please don't go, BezMills! I think I've just about nailed an appropriate accent for your commentary (in my head).

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 14:29

The lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

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