NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

I'm with you on this - I don't like people making fun of names. Even ones like Ramsbottom which cause hilarity outside of a certain geographical area - I would equally tell people to stop laughing at Ramsbottom.

Are we talking about an investigation that NHS Fife didn't admit to running until they were forced to concede that it had actually happened? Or am I remembering wrong and this is the last and 'proper' investigation?

From TT

NC - ED's interview as a witness on 26 April 24, ED was asked was you were informed of incident on 24 Dec, and then asked of any further incidents in the AE that she was aware of - read her answer to yourself, not out loud. It's clear from that ED had not heard anything about SP walking out on a patient, or refusing to communicate with DU.
GM - it seems to say that
NC - it says she became aware of it later when she had a statement from DU.
GM - I don't know when Beth got that information.

Fifer : Boioioioioing goes rake number twa

NC - now onto complaint about 24 Dec & previous interactions, an email from Adam Watson (AW) which attaches 'formal complaint', and that is the first doc trace that has been shown to the Tribunal of that info being passed to the i/x team. Was that doc in the hands of anyone before the 11 June? Was it given to anyone?
GM - I'm not aware of that.
NC - 3 paras 'the allegation' is that the nurse sought out a doctor in the CR, and compared to a sex offender, and was leaving cubicles when the dr entered. Has since discussed with GM and wants to suspend. The same allegation is being referred to, the seriousness, are we agreed
GM - ask me again

Fifer : heid still sair scunnert fae that rake, deh blame her

NC - the allegation is that the nurse sought out the dr and had a confrontation referred to the cr, that is the same allegation

GM - I think there's also a patient safety allegation being referred to.
NC - it is singular 'the allegation', it is the christmas eve allegation that is being referred to as serious
GM - the risk assessment included patient safety concern.
J (Big Sond) - just for completeness, the next para we spoke at length about the allegations, so is plural
NC - thank you yes. But again that tends to support the suggestion that you were relying on the seriousness of the Christmas Eve allegation to suspend.
GM - I think it was all the incidents
NC - did you see the detail
GM - I don't recall

Fifer : Big Sond needs to chip in, tae remind abdy NC isnae running the show. And how did she get that muckle rake through security? NC gies him short shrift and sets up another rake.

That was my recollection. I think that NC became suspicious on about day 3 or 4. None of this was originally disclosed.

From TT

NC - a request made in September, unfortunately you are muddling up the suspension checklist with the risk assessment. I need the original risk assessment. It doesn't seem that any risk assessment was actually done by ED at the time.
GM - I can't recall

Third rake deploys instantly, must have been on a timer. It just says 'unfortunately' on it.

I once worked with a Dr D'eath - thankfully a PhD not an MD

My experience is that nurses generally say 'the doctor' or 'doctor x' when talking to strangers/patients about a particular doctor. You'd expect that to be the default, especially in a stressful / formal situation.

If I wasn't at work (as a band 4 pleb, nevertheless fully aware of own gender), i might consider an "I don't recall" drinking game

Bagsy Bumba.

I think it's just a contrived means of using the feminine name for him. We had a plopper yesterday whose sole intention was to reiterate that Upton goes by the name of Beth, as if we didn't know.

Way too much "nothing to do with me" coming from all the Fife staff.

I'm not sure even Fife know at this point!

And a lot of not remembering stuff too.

“i can’t recall” though rather than “I don’t recall/remember”. That way they are avoiding outright lying because they cannot afford to say what they actually recall? 🤔🤔

Agree - yesterday IB revealed how slapdash and ad hoc DEI 'policy' was, today from GM we are seeing the lack of clear structures and lines of responsibility.

edited to say I think GM's 'I don't recall' may be genuine, given the tangled web of communications between different levels of people passing the buck backwards and forwards between them!

With a sprinkling of "I cannot recalls"

They are so bad at remembering important details and never write anything down 🙄

If only we had Upton's phone.

Has anyone successfully left the live stream and then got back in? Annoyingly I had to attend a meeting and I can't get in now.

I used to work with a woman from Fife, who alternated between calling me ‘Hen’, and
’My Little Cheese and Onion Sandwich’.

To this day, i’m not sure what the latter meant, but i loved it anyway.

If only they'd taken a leaf out of Dr Contemporaneous Notes Upton's notebook!

Yet we've never seen them

I am outraged at the lack of care in record keeping. This is someone’s career on the line and no one can remember who they spoke to, what they said, no minutes taken.
OK, so it’s SP, who we already know has been cleared and will be a national shero so doesn’t need to go back to A and E if she doesn’t want to.
But what if it was a similar nurse who HAD accidentally fucked up and genuinely put patient safety at risk, don’t they deserve a water tight process to investigate? And the public deserve a tight process to ensure that unsafe practice so wasn’t slip through the net?

I presume a chromosome investigation was done on her/his spouse, if she/he calls said spouse his/her husband/wife if their chromosomes are untested.

Personally, I think IB was talking complete and utter tosh. I think IB knows very well she was talking complete and utter tosh. Does she call her dad a woman, and her mother a man, pending any testing?

This is all people pissing down your back, and telling you it is raining. They know very well they are talking shite.

Missing the point entirely but, if Sandie just worked a couple of nightshifts/week, wouldn't it have been fairly easy to roster Dr U so that their paths didn't cross?

I think NC has successfully proved that the 2 career-limiting alleged incidents were an afterthought/hearsay.

Anyone know that song by Shaggy -It wasn’t me ? I now have it as an earworm.

@saveforthat yes I have dropped out due to Internet and got back in. I have also had in running in the background and taken calls ok.