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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

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18
NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 11:54

And there was I feeling smug that I have TT and Mumsnet open in separate windows on my (very) widescreen monitor.

littlbrowndog · 17/07/2025 11:54

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 11:49

Layers. You need layers!

T shirt, cardigan, gilet

And it’s a cardie where I am from

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 11:55

Jumpers! Squirrels! Squirrels in jumpers! Easily distracted? Us? never!!Grin

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29
BezMills · 17/07/2025 11:55

From TT

NC - wasn't it for you to have oversight of this, given that you would have to replace ED

NC (continues) - J Doyle not giving evidence in this tribunal
GM - not as far as I am aware.
NC - decision to suspend was made after meeting on 3 Jan,
GM - yes
NC - there will be a i/x following this type of suspension, it follows
GM - yes, you will be starting a workforce i/x

Fifer : that new rake has Big Gill written all over it

J - is that different from a disciplinary i/x
GM - recites several different types of ix
NC - decision to suspend and i/x are the same
GM - yes
NC - exchanges within HR that you were not copied on, I will ask you some questions. Look at email of 3 Jan from J Hurkiss (sp) wants to update colleagues on advice she has given to ED, suspension being the last resort, day shifts and supervision, ED thought it was almost impossible to keep them separate, spoke with GD, there seems to be a patient safety issue hence suspension is the best course

Fifer : NC daen some fine needlework here. GM is getting sewn into a pocket and the only way oot is past that rake.

NC (continues) you were behind the drive for suspension
GM - it was ED's decision
NC - you were discussing with ED, were you a part of the decision
GM - I was reviewing the risk assessment and forwarding to my manager
NC - did you agree with the decision
GM - ED had additional info about 2 alleged incidents involving patients, that I did not have, that made it a patient safety decision.
NC - did you see a completed risk assessment form from ED at that time
GM - I can't recall
NC - you say ED had other info about 2 patient concerns, J Hurkess email refers to those concerns 'allegation that nurse sought out dr in CR and compared them to convicted rapist, it was a hate incident requ'd a datix, and was walking out of cubicles when Dr entered them. Let's go to the full document. Can you see on the Datix that the C was leaving

Bannedontherun · 17/07/2025 11:56

There seems an awful lot of people involved in the alleged investigation, seems to me it would be impossible to stop it leaking out.

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 11:57

Hillfarmer · 17/07/2025 11:23

OK many thanks. I joined late. I didn't realise you have to be in the waiting room before the session started so maybe I have missed the cut. I thought you could join during the session...

I'm on Safari, which worked well (for a time) in February... but I only got audio yesterday.

I got in after the session started. It’s worth a try.

I think they were stricter at first to see how well they could manage it.

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 11:59

And no-one bothered to tell Upton not to say anything. He was talking to the BMA remember.

One thing I'm taking from this is that the NHS has too many nurse managers of one sort or another - and it's not clear what this one really does.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 11:59

From TT

NC - you say ED had other info about 2 patient concerns, J Hurkess email refers to those concerns 'allegation that nurse sought out dr in CR and compared them to convicted rapist, it was a hate incident requ'd a datix, and was walking out of cubicles when Dr entered them. Let's go to the full document. Can you see on the Datix that the C was leaving cubicles when dr was entering
GM - says something about an escalation of behaviour between nurse and doctor
NC - that's as close as we get
GM - yes
NC - ED had only been in clinical nurse manager role for a couple of weeks at that time
GM - a short period time, but experienced
NC - your sources of info: Datix, JD and email from J Doyle, correct
GM - yes
NC - ED's interview as a witness on 26 April 24, ED was asked was you were informed of incident on 24 Dec, and then asked of any further incidents in the AE that she was aware of - read her answer

Fifer : oh that rake looks gey jaggie, thick hondle on it tae

Bannedontherun · 17/07/2025 12:00

Interesting that the judge asked for the distinction of ani/x and a disciplinary hearing as it sounds to me like they muddled the two up.

Lunde · 17/07/2025 12:00

GM has walked directly into NC's trap

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 12:01

Also loving the dialect translation.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 12:01

I’m getting by on Nitter and Mumsnet - no live feed here. Can’t wait for the film to come out . Can we have NC playing herself?

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 12:01

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 11:42

Making fun via names is pretty common. Private Eye does it all the time. Ed Ballsup, Piers Moron, Carter Fuck, Crapita, WorstGroup....

But Balls, Morgan and Ruck are not 'funny forrin' names. I know it's the name she's adopted on marriage and so one could argue that the 'plays' on it are not referring to her nationality or origins and are instead on her character and behaviour.

But it still makes me feel uncomfortable. Irrational maybe but there it is.

murasaki · 17/07/2025 12:02

Lunde · 17/07/2025 12:00

GM has walked directly into NC's trap

Will you walk into my parlour, said the spider to the fly.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 12:02

NC says 'Dr Upton', GM replies with
GM - I don't know when Beth..

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 12:03

Lunde · 17/07/2025 12:00

GM has walked directly into NC's trap

Can you expand please?

witchesfly · 17/07/2025 12:03

I was listening earlier and it appeared that JR was calling Sandie 'Miss Peggie' in a way that sounded almost like 'Miss Piggie'. I thought Sandie was married anyway? ANd surely then she should be address as either Mrs Peggie, or Nurse Peggia?

Rightsraptor · 17/07/2025 12:03

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 11:59

And no-one bothered to tell Upton not to say anything. He was talking to the BMA remember.

One thing I'm taking from this is that the NHS has too many nurse managers of one sort or another - and it's not clear what this one really does.

Edited

Far too many chiefs and nowhere near enough Indians.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 12:03

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 12:02

NC says 'Dr Upton', GM replies with
GM - I don't know when Beth..

It strikes me too that GM uses "Beth" rather than Dr Upton.

Lunde · 17/07/2025 12:04

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 12:03

Can you expand please?

She's walked her directly into saying that the suspension decision was made about "patient care" but BU didn't make those allegations until later - not in the original report

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 12:05

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 12:01

But Balls, Morgan and Ruck are not 'funny forrin' names. I know it's the name she's adopted on marriage and so one could argue that the 'plays' on it are not referring to her nationality or origins and are instead on her character and behaviour.

But it still makes me feel uncomfortable. Irrational maybe but there it is.

I haven't seen anyone making fun of it from a racial perspective. The joke has always been about how it can relate to her incompetence, nothing about ethnicity.

murasaki · 17/07/2025 12:05

GM is trying to reinforce the idea of Upton as a woman in the mind of the judge. NC has no truck with that.

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 12:05

The unsaid in all of the current discussion in the hearing is that the allegations and incidents that they're discussing, all reported in the datix and the emails, have since been dismissed and that there was insufficient evidence.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 12:06

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 12:02

NC says 'Dr Upton', GM replies with
GM - I don't know when Beth..

Bet they have been coached to say Beth when referring to Upton that way it’s harder to ‘misgender’ him.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 17/07/2025 12:07

'Spilt more ale down t'weskit, than you've supped th'night!'

'why do yow try drinkin' it instead o' chuckin' it down yer close, yer daft twat'

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