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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

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18
TrainedByCats · 17/07/2025 12:20

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 11:51

she changed her name (presumably on marriage) to Bumba 😳 rather than keep her own name.

It also strongly suggests that she knows she's female because it's very uncommon for men to do this.

I didn’t even think of that aspect 🤣

Did Beth change his name on marriage or did his wife I wonder 🤔

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 12:20

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 12:18

I am outraged at the lack of care in record keeping. This is someone’s career on the line and no one can remember who they spoke to, what they said, no minutes taken.
OK, so it’s SP, who we already know has been cleared and will be a national shero so doesn’t need to go back to A and E if she doesn’t want to.
But what if it was a similar nurse who HAD accidentally fucked up and genuinely put patient safety at risk, don’t they deserve a water tight process to investigate? And the public deserve a tight process to ensure that unsafe practice so wasn’t slip through the net?

Is there not a 'we're going to suspend you' form somewhere that someone has signed?

wellnotexactly · 17/07/2025 12:22

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 12:20

Is there not a 'we're going to suspend you' form somewhere that someone has signed?

Probably, but who would recall?

littlbrowndog · 17/07/2025 12:22

Surely someone signed the suspension form

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 12:23

I'm really enjoying the cross-examination on the Christmas Eve incident because I'm almost certain we will, at the appropriate time, hear more from SP's side about the 'reflective discussion' requirement from the disciplinary. Whoever thought it was a good idea to require that and announce the same on Fife website is clearly going to feel well and truly Naomi'd for their troubles!

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 12:23

Freda69 · 17/07/2025 12:19

Anyone know that song by Shaggy -It wasn’t me ? I now have it as an earworm.

I’ve got ‘I’m too stupid for this job, so stupid it hurts’ going round my head

PrettyDamnCosmic · 17/07/2025 12:23

saveforthat · 17/07/2025 12:17

Has anyone successfully left the live stream and then got back in? Annoyingly I had to attend a meeting and I can't get in now.

I have left & rejoined a couple of times this morning with no issue.

FatCyclist · 17/07/2025 12:24

@BezMills I am loving the translations!!!!

Chersfrozenface · 17/07/2025 12:24

TrainedByCats · 17/07/2025 12:20

I didn’t even think of that aspect 🤣

Did Beth change his name on marriage or did his wife I wonder 🤔

His wife did, she was previously Davis.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 12:26

Is that the sound of a rake smacking a witness in the face I hear?

ETA: not on the room, just reading TT

Signalbox · 17/07/2025 12:26

This witness is so quietly spoken it make you think she doesn't believe in a word she is saying and she's reluctant to get quoted by the press.

AAT65 · 17/07/2025 12:26

TrainedByCats · 17/07/2025 12:20

I didn’t even think of that aspect 🤣

Did Beth change his name on marriage or did his wife I wonder 🤔

Upton did not change his name on marriage. He only changed his non-surnames when he re-registered as female with the GMC. Both registrations are still visible. Upton is not a common surname.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 12:27

From TT

NC - we have an interpretation, we see Melanie Jorgenson (sp) email of 4 Jan, second para 'I agree with Jackie that this risk can be mitigated, I assume it has to do with patients undergoing a similar process'. That's referring to trans patients - do you agree.
GM - I think so
NC - so the perception that SP might treat a trans patient badly, is the risk
GM - yes, it seems so
NC - it say we have no evidence of the nurse leaving the room when doctor came in, no complaints over many years of service, why suspend
GM - ED thought they couldn't be kept apart.
NC - so SP was suspended because she did not want DU in the cr.
GM - she was suspended because of the Datix, there are a number of allegations that must be investigated.

A fourth rake has jist teleported in, like fuckin star trek

NC - do you agree that patient care allegations were only raised as result of the Christmas Eve incident.
GM - no, I don't think so.
NC - do you agree that if the only concern was the incident in the CR and not the patient care concerns, there would be no suspension
GM - the suspension was based on a risk assessment that was not undertaken by me.
NC - q8, ED evidence in disc/x. Please read.

The fourth rake has just split in twa. Thae tools they're multiplyin.

GM - I've read it
NC - does that match what ED told you when you first discussed the incident
GM - the convo I had was about the risk assessment she had undertaken, I already had the background from the Datix, she will have old me some of it and I was aware.
NC - turning to DU's account. Sorry before we do that, can I confirm you are most senior witness from FIfe giving evidence. I want to ask you about what is in this now, having read that - is there anything that strikes you as completely unacceptable, if it is true.

Rakes 4 and 5 have just lit up. They say 'Gies a name'. In comic sans.

GM - yes I find it unacceptable that one colleague would confront another.

Fifer : Big Gill wouldnae gress up her boss. Fair enough. Rakes 4 and 5 light up with "Gill", go skadoosh

NC - what is unacceptable
GM - quoting from the statement
NC - yes
GM - SP asking what genes DU had, how they came to be in the CR together, a terrible incident to happen (on) Christmas Day.;
NC - what exactly was unacceptable about it
GM - a discriminatory allegation
NC - what specifically is discriminatory
GM - nurse asked the dr about his genes
NC - is that the worse thing to your mind
GM - not considering the Datix, that's worst thing
NC - if the Tribunal finds that C did not ask DU about his genes, it was not appropriate for her to tell DU shouldn't be in changing room,
GM - clarify
NC - if SP had only said she didn't think DU should be in f cr.
GM - it had been addressed, we had taken advice DU was entitled to use the f cr.
NC - so it was discriminatory to raise the issue at all?
GM - yes.

J (Big Sond) - time for a 5 minute break I think.
Court rises

Big Sond, get that lassie a panadol. And somebody search that briefcase. I will not tolerate any more assaults by gairden tools in ma court.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 12:27

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 12:23

I’ve got ‘I’m too stupid for this job, so stupid it hurts’ going round my head

Right said Fred? 😂

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 12:28

And here it comes rom NC, after a few outswingers, the yorker:

. NC - so it was discriminatory to raise the issue [of DrU being in the women's CR] at all?

inother words, getting GM to say that SP asserting her rights under the EA, workplace regs etc was 'discriminatory'.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 12:29

@NebulousDogWhistleIsReality Yup! (Showing my age).
Boom! what a finish NC. 👏👏👏👏👏

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 12:29

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 12:19

Missing the point entirely but, if Sandie just worked a couple of nightshifts/week, wouldn't it have been fairly easy to roster Dr U so that their paths didn't cross?

I think NC has successfully proved that the 2 career-limiting alleged incidents were an afterthought/hearsay.

Kate Searle managed to organise their shifts not to cross in the immediate aftermath, alongside her flurry of 'less helpful' activity, so we know it could have been done. Rostering is a big job but KS was leading the fellowship programme and was exactly the right person to handle it, if she had been minded to act neutrally pending the investigation.

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 12:29

WRT lack of paperwork and meeting minutes It is shocking. I always took contemporaneous notes of any meeting, discussion or phone call. I had to hand over my notes as disclosure when I was a witness.

People often deride HR and HR policies and procedures but they are written so if you end up at an ET you know you have followed the lawful process and kept the required paperwork. It may seem boring and jobs worthy day to day but it’s the best way to show you have not acted unlawfully.

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 12:31

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 12:29

WRT lack of paperwork and meeting minutes It is shocking. I always took contemporaneous notes of any meeting, discussion or phone call. I had to hand over my notes as disclosure when I was a witness.

People often deride HR and HR policies and procedures but they are written so if you end up at an ET you know you have followed the lawful process and kept the required paperwork. It may seem boring and jobs worthy day to day but it’s the best way to show you have not acted unlawfully.

@BezMills Rakes 4 and 5 have just lit up. They say 'Gies a name'. In comic sans.

Thank you for this comedy gold.

not sure why the quote though. Sorry about that.

Greyskybluesky · 17/07/2025 12:31

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 12:18

I am outraged at the lack of care in record keeping. This is someone’s career on the line and no one can remember who they spoke to, what they said, no minutes taken.
OK, so it’s SP, who we already know has been cleared and will be a national shero so doesn’t need to go back to A and E if she doesn’t want to.
But what if it was a similar nurse who HAD accidentally fucked up and genuinely put patient safety at risk, don’t they deserve a water tight process to investigate? And the public deserve a tight process to ensure that unsafe practice so wasn’t slip through the net?

I totally agree. It's actually shocking to see it all picked apart like this. We all know that mistakes do happen at work, but this is on a whole different level.

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 12:31

I agree with SP doing two night shifts a week it was entirely possible to arrange it so she and DrU were not on duty together.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/07/2025 12:31

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 12:06

Bet they have been coached to say Beth when referring to Upton that way it’s harder to ‘misgender’ him.

That sounds very plausible.

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 12:32

Where is the risk assessment? Was it done? Did anyone read it?

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2025 12:32

There hadn't really been any assessment, either. IB had already said that no assessments had been made into the numbers of staff with religious faith, nor of those who didn't subscribe to gender identity. So suggesting that SP making a complaint about a male member of staff in the female changing rooms was "discriminatory" because they'd already done assessments, is incorrect.

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