NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

Hmm. There's a big bloke ('transwoman') who lives locally here, & takes oestrogen, has done so for years. It doesn't make him appear one jot more 'female'. It just makes him look fat!!

BU may have well had some facial feminisation surgeries though, (lip lift & nose reduction, some work around the eyes too??)
Nothing would reduce his big, hockey- player frame though. So he may well look more 'passing' in photos (especially head & shoulder shots). In the flesh though, not so much.
I watched him at the first half of this tribunal! One could see him arriving/ leaving the witness stand... bloke.

Oh dear this is going to stay with me today 🤣🤣

He clearly knows he doesn't pass. He tried to keep his face covered when the tribunal first started. And anyway, Sandie clocked him!

I’m watching the tribunal as I work. It’s very distracting.

Awesome thank you!

I think the idea that these men “pass” is another laughable lie inflicted upon us by ideologues & idiots.

maybe .01% of men with a trans identity “pass”.

It's to do with the fact that her audience isn't us, it's the Tribunal panel. Beating a witness over the head and making grand statements is actually off-putting to them. Laying it out and letting them make the final connections themselves so they go "ahhhh" when they themselves see the full picture is more effective in terms of persuasion.

Back to IBs job ad (excellent sleuthing there!), IB doesn't meet the minimum criteria."it is essential that you have leadership experience in the field of Equality and Diversity." IB was a covid contact tracer, and before that a barmaid.

The jd and person spec are pathetically vague (wouldn't get through vacancy approval board here) but she doesn't even meet the essential criteria. On Trac ( NHS job application software) a person who doesn't meet the essential criteria shouldn't even been shortlisted, let alone interviewed, let alone get the job.

I thought discussion yesterday of her having friends in high places being the explanation of how she got the job seemed far fetched, but now I'm not so sure. It shouldn't be possible.

And as an aside, compare her JD and person spec with any of the jds and person specs for band 7 ward managers currently on NHS jobs - substantial experience, post qualification specialist study, management experience, budget holding, managing sickness and rota for dozens of staff, proven excellence in patient care, reams of other essential requirements and core duties. It's insulting to band 7 nurses.

Place marking

Absolutely agree re the "fantasy changing room" discussion. To me it looked horribly like "banter" about corrective rape.

BU is also going bald. Normally I feel a bit sorry for blokes who lose their hair early (though they usually cheer up when they shave their heads and find how many people like the look).

Absolutely agree re the "fantasy changing room" discussion. To me it looked horribly like "banter" about corrective rape.

Absolutely, thank you. And although you're the first person to refer to my post, it got lots of "agrees".

I also remember someone here explaining during the first part of the tribunal that it’s about establishing the facts of what went on. Then that can be considered with regard to the law.
But IANAL

@2021x People can have the protected characteristic of gender reasssignment. That means that may claim unfair dismissal if sacked for believing in gender identity. However the sacking may be legitimate if they have harassed a non believer. Personally I'm not convinved that the more extreme believers pass 2 of the tests.

It must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.

It must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, be not incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

My emphasis obviously.

In civil service recruitment you quite often get applications from recent graduates who have lots of enthusiasm and confidence but are very light on relevant experience. This would be fine if they were going for entry level EO jobs, where you can pick up the experience as you go and then aim for promotion. But as often as not they're applying for G6 head of team roles.

The only thing to say to a candidate like that is, we like your enthusiasm, but at this stage in your career maybe be more modest in the jobs you're setting your sights on.

As a pp said, IB has something of a Strike character about her. JKR could have a lot of fun writing a clueless young woman who's blagged her way into a job that she's completely unsuited for, and then finds herself in a position where she can't bluff any more.

One way it can work effectively is that having provided the information to the panel to make the connections themselves during cross-examination, when, in making her closing arguments, NC states those connections explicity then she's saying things the panel members already tentatively settled on themselves and so they'll be much more receptive.

I can’t get over the whole “I don’t know my sex without having my chromosomes checked”. It’s batshit! If that was how the NHS truly operated, then anyone coming in for sex specific procedures would need to have their chromosomes checked. But no, when people come to hospital to give birth or receive treatment for cervical/prostate/testicular cancer, it’s generally assumed that the patient is the correct sex for that procedure/illness. Pretty sure testing everyone’s chromosomes is totally unnecessary for such issues, because sex isn’t this mystery that we couldn’t possibly understand without chromosomes. 🤦‍♀️

Sorry to nit-pick, but the PC of GR is (I paraphrase) considering, proposing to take or actually taking steps to change your gender. You might do that because you believe you have a cross-sex gender identity, but believing in a cross-sex GI is not itself what the PC of GR is.

For example, Isla Bumba believes in GI but doesn't have the PC of GR. If belief in GI is a protected belief, she has the PC of religion/belief.

I'm not sure I'd put I that way. Belief in gender identity would come under the pc of religion and belief. The pc of gender reassignment applies to people proposing or undergoing transition to live as opposite sex (I don't remember the exact EA wording).

Maybe that should be made explicit to NHS leaders, @laddersandsnakes12? If they absolutely MUST carry on with GI-influenced policies, they must sex test every single patient before every single procedure to both establish sex and check they’ve not spontaneously transitioned at any point between NHS contacts. I’m sure their budgets would love it.

I can’t keep up! Please can someone do a quick summary of recent developments and what’s expected.

Agreed.

There's a "corrective rape" tone about it and it's making me uncomfortable.

It is telling enough that IB has never been to the changing room in question, maybe doesn't know where it is, how it is used on a day to day basis, never changes at work herself and yet happily gave an open pass over the phone to any male who wanted to go there. She has openly admitted all these things in the hearing, along with admitting that she has never ever considered the impact on those with other PC especially women and those of faith, and that for her to do so would require them to raise a complaint or concern.

All of this has been clearly and cleverly drawn out and displayed in the hearing through NC questioning.

IB may be a lost cause for mulling all of this over on the train home, but the media picked up on the salient points and we can hope that there will be far and wide ripple effects for NHS orgs (and others) to reflect on their own behaviour in similar situations.

We don't need to target individual women for corrective experiences, fantasy or not.

I think the chromosomes nonsense comes because the true believers spent a few years rolling the phrase 'ambiguous genitalia' round (particularly in the context of accusing sex-realists of wanting to inspect people's genitals) and then more recently they have had the fact that chromosomes (even in the case of people with rare DSDs) are not ambiguous hammered home.

So now they have to admit there is a difference between men and women, but claim that without a chromosome check no one can know.

Cheek swabs all round instead of bits-flashing. Still doesn't explain Pips Bunce.

Yup. He's the sort of person who looks for trouble in an empty house and when there's none to be found, creates a fire.

Trans Reddit have noticed what IB said yesterday. Poor IB, you can never be pure enough for them:

Dependent-Jury8514
• 11h ago
I am absolutely furious. Isla Bumba misgendered dr Upton during the hearings today. she is meant to be an ally. A real ally would never do this.