NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

When does today's session start?

@Nameychangington 'Back to IBs job ad (excellent sleuthing there!), IB doesn't meet the minimum criteria."it is essential that you have leadership experience in the field of Equality and Diversity." IB was a covid contact tracer, and before that a barmaid.
The jd and person spec are pathetically vague (wouldn't get through vacancy approval board here) but she doesn't even meet the essential criteria. On Trac ( NHS job application software) a person who doesn't meet the essential criteria shouldn't even been shortlisted, let alone interviewed, let alone get the job.'

One thing I noticed was IB described herself as having specialised in Equalities. I've looked at the module list for the current year of her Masters, and can't see an obvious module on Equalities, so does that mean her dissertation had relevance? Or simply another type of self id. (Although there is a module on Women's Health in Global Settings.)

Placemarking before starting work. Will catch up on discreet toilet breaks during the day in our gender neutral toilets

Officially 10am, but it's anyone's guess really

Yes - and if there were concern about a high number of undetected DSDs, the simple answer would be to just test everyone's chromosomes at birth.

It is not the unknowable mystery that Bumba/Upton/the BMA claim.

A recommendation from that Reddit thread referred to by@Charabanc:

Btw, I'd advise everyone here to stay away from threads related to this subject on the r/Scotland Reddit as they're jam-packed with transphobes/Sandie Peggie supporters.

I had to do this too yesterday, lost most of the morning!
I'm amazed at the whole not being sure of what sex you are, not having examined chromosomes etc. That's sounding very much like the party line they've been told to follow. NC needs to ask all the NHS witnesses what sex they are to see if it's coincidence or pattern. Not that I'd presume to advise her on how to do her job. She's formidable! I'd want her on my side and to have my back if it came to it.

I can't remember exactly what Esther Davies said, but it was something like "I don't know what sex Upton is because I'm not an expert." She is a Nurse Manager, in charge of the Emergency Dept 😂

maybe .01% of men with a trans identity “pass”, some of the time

Wowsers. Was out on the razz last night so have only just caught up with yesterday's events. One plea from me @mnhq can drive by scoldings please be left up, looks like I missed a corker.

One other thing to note about Isla Bumba, not only will be likely be on over £50k by now, as an NHS employee she will also benefit from the very generous pension provision.

And that's when they've had extensive facial feminisation surgery.

Am I right in saying she's up today?

I don’t think anyone answered this yet.

a protected belief merely means you can’t be discriminated against for holding a particular belief. It doesn’t mean you can exhibit discriminatory behaviour. Correctly sexing hasn’t been tested in court yet but I think it would come down to context. Correctly sexing in a medical setting or around access to single sex spaces is likely to be acceptable. Other instances might be argued to be harassment and discrimination against the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Think of it like religion. You can believe everyone who doesn’t follow your religion goes to hell but if you’re regularly actively telling your Muslim colleague he needs to convert or face eternal damnation it’s likely to be considered to be harassment and discrimination.

Today should be Gillian Malone and then maybe another after her.

I disagree - if you’re making a decision on behalf of others then you’d have to be prepared to put yourself in that situation too. If IB had been in the prison service she’d have been dealing with dangerous characters but obviously in her setting that wasn’t an issue. So privacy and dignity were more relevant. Putting her in a changing room with an androgynous male in scrubs and telling her to get on with undressing might be the only way for her to “get it”. Although given her insistence that women can rape men we might have to arrange a chaperone for the male’s safety

@TheKeatingFive No, it's her manager who is on this morning and maybe this afternoon. Gillian Malone

And when they don't speak, and when you don't look at their enormous feet!

I'm interested in the "woman can rape men" bit - my husband suggested this was with a strap on but that does happen outside porn sites? A quick google suggests vanishing rare but that some men enjoy being pegged. Given that men are almost always stronger than women couldnt they just get away, unless you'd tied them to something and again you'd have to co-operate for that.

This line seems to have been swallowed whole by so many people, particularly after comments from the BMA after the SC ruling.

I really want somebody to call them out on it.

Rationally, what they are saying is that in a small number of cases a DSD may not be detected. However, of all the protected characteristics, sex is probably the most straightforward to determine.

The impression they give is that sex is all about chromosomes (and is completely detached from sexual reproduction), so no individual can have any way of knowing their sex, without a chromosome test.

It's all such obvious rubbish, but people don't engage their brains.

I wonder if Gillian Malone has checked her chromosomes before giving evidence today? Obviously I apologise in advance for ‘misgendering’ her if she turns out to be a man, because as we all know, it’s impossible to tell just by looking at someone.

Mind you, according to IB, it is only Isla Bryson who is a problem. Maybe Isla Bryson before being convicted of rape would have presented a problem for IB if he said he was a lady. If we have to accept what these men say over our own eyes, it might have been ok for IB to enter places where he has the opportunity to be in a place where women (or even a lone woman) is in a state of undress. Nothing wrong with him getting his kit off either, I presume (pre rape conviction).

It must be a nightmare at breaktime in the court house. Everyone will be dithering in the corridor, not knowing which toilets to use.

It’s errant nonsense that is being used to try and muddy the waters. NC will effortlessly deal with that, and Isla’s many other factually incorrect statements, in her final submission. No one is buying it.

Also I think that women can correctly sex men at a distance much easier than men can, probably an evolutionary thing as we need to be able to quickly assess danger and being near men. So even in the "flattering" pictures the media initially chose for Dr U, I could immediately tell he was male. The shape of his head, high forehead, receding hairline and even the nose and eyebrows despite plucking. My DH initially thought he did look feminine.

Also thanks to @nauticant for starting up this new thread. I reckon by the time I finish work today and log back in to read more we will be onto thread 30!!! 😂