NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

Is the Courier livestreaming commentary today? I can only find yesterday's livestream.

From TT

GM - press coverage, didnt name doctor or nurse, but seemed that media had info on internal i/x, we needed to remind people of breaches of confidentiality might compromise the i/x. Asking her to maintain confidentiality. Checked that she was getting the right support.
JR - why were you concerned about a breach of confidentiality might compromise i/x
GM - we ask everyone involved in an i/x to maintain confidentiality

Fifer : Wee Sondie needed telt tae haud her wheesht

Loving the simultaneous translations, @BezMills!

JR - now July, 'urgent media inquiry' refers to a new allegation about breach of confidentiality from Sandra Rayner, head of Work Force Resourcing and Relations.says we need to take an early intervention approach and remind SP of need to maintain confidentiality during an active i/x GM - press coverage, didnt name doctor or nurse, but seemed that media had info on internal i/x, we needed to remind people of breaches of confidentiality

Calling the investigation "Active" after it as been going on for 7 months is a bit of a stretch.

Good point. When I read MSP I was thinking Murdo Fraser, perhaps.

Interesting that every word out of DU's mouth was documented meticulously whereas none of SP's were as they were just discussed with varying levels of recall at teams meetings where no records were kept.

Risk assessment needed to determine whether Sandie could be at work but no risk assessment required before deciding a TW could use the female changing rooms 🤔🤔

Hi - it has a left hand bar with list of names, mine is on it. Black screen also with icons - a volume button and a red 'hang up' button.

Posted yesterday

https://x.com/JNHanvey/status/1945416133135200339

I think women do the hem up thing so that the clothes underneath don't ride up and show tummy/breasts inadvertently. It's part of being conditioned to be modest and discreet.

@BezMillsAs a Fifer your translations of the proceedings into Fifish are brilliant. I hear them in my late dad's accent. Gaun yersel!

From TT

JR - you were currently on to NMC, what was that about
GM - not unusual to talk with them, seek advice, I gave them context but no id of SP, explained the reasons why the i/x had been commissioned, looking for advice on media. Told me we should conclude internal i/x first
JR - email from Norma Beveridge, based on info no reason to reconsider suspension based on rumours circulating
GM - that was not my recollection, I recall we talked about whether the rumour should factor into the risk assessment
JR - discussed on 3 July
GM - discussed in earlier meeting, agreed that SP's line manager should talk with her
JR - who did you speak with
GM - I spoke to Louise Curran but it turned out that Lauren Harris (sp) would be next person on shift with SP, I couldn't speak to her so I sent an email
JR - your email said to remind SP not to talk with anyone involved with the i/x, or other members of staff why
GM - that's the OfS policy on i/x
JR - what's the template for support letter for suspended staff
GM - its a OfS policy resource, not in the body of policy, but a resource to be used
JR - I have no further questions.
J - we will take a 10 minute break, feel free to bring back water or soft drink, G&T might be pushing it. Court rises.
End of Morning Part 1

Fifer : look a deh mind yes gaun up the pub, but deh tear the erse oot ay it

Mine had this on an ipad on chrome. But worked OK on safari. However i think they locked the observer remote rooms when the ET started today. Maybe try again at lunch?

I take off a jumper by sliding my hand up the sleeves - one at a time, obvs - to removed my arms from the sleeves and then pulling the jumper over my head.
It seems important to share this information😏

They can't because NHS Fife were operating a full self-id policy. The Haldane ruling in the Fws vs scot government appeal (2022) specifically said that self-id was not legal a man with the PC of gender reassignment who doesn't have a GRC is still legally male and as such has no right to use the female facilities nor the expectation of the right to use them. That part of the ruling was not contested in the SC as bothe FWS and the Scottish government accepted that it was accurate, the only part of the haldane ruling that was contested was whether a GRC made a man a woman under the equality act as haldane and the Scottish government believed they were wrong.
Dr Upton was a man with NO GRC and as such had no right nor the expectation of the right to use the female facilities.
The Scottish government may privately been knowingly pushing illegal policies but publicly and in crt they acknowledged the law

Why thank you @ApolloandDaphne

Neebor, born and bred! Ye cannae fake it.

If you are going to wait, then in the meantime it would be handy to download an alternative browser if possible.

Taking a break. Judge says they can bring back drinks, though 'g&t might be pushing it'

I do the same, arms first, then wrangle it over my head, cursing that I forgot to stand up and take my glasses off.

Wanting to get to the cross examination

I'm a hem crossed arms takeroffer, but I feel your pain with the glasses.

Even worse if you forget to untie a tie neck! The claustrophobia panic is real!

I've missed a lot of the thread but I can see we're still talking about jumpers. I have no idea how I put on or take off a jumper, I'd have to try it!

Perfect example.

For anyone unaware of Katie Horsburgh -

https://www.scotsman.com/news/national/edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-ceos-position-untenable-after-damning-tribunal-ruling-as-two-board-members-resign-4636009