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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

HugTreesNow · 17/07/2025 10:18

Gillian Malone is nearer the camera with her back to us

ickky · 17/07/2025 10:19

Oh that's much better, the judge has also entered the room.

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 10:19

Morning all 👋

I wonder what nonsense we are going to be subjected to today.

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:20

Yes, it looks like they have moved the witness and the stenographer. I think yesterday IB said a couple of times that she couldn't hear the questions very well because the stenographer's typing was too loud. Witness is now bottom right, with short grey hair. The stenographer is where IB was sitting yesterday.

GCITC · 17/07/2025 10:21

Anyone struggling with hearing the witness?

SionnachRuadh · 17/07/2025 10:21

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 09:39

I'm still puzzling over what IB had in mind when she said women can rape men. In the context of discussion about violence I don't think she had in mind a TW/TM scenario. And I don't think, given her woeful knowledge of the law, that she would be aware of a 'technical' rape offence under the concept of joint enterprise.

So I think she's probably absorbed something online relating to another jurisdiction where the definitions are not the same as here. Somehow it fits with her thinking so she believes it and says it with complete conviction.

As JR kept pointing out, she's not a lawyer. Why let accuracy get in the way?

IANAL, but I have a law degree and at least know the basics of criminal law.

It's amazing the number of well educated people you meet who think they've got an understanding of criminal law based on watching Law & Order and not realising that the American system is very different (and indeed differs between the federal system and the 50 states).

If she's spent much time in online trans spaces, where you get amateur internet lawyers from all around the world but mostly North America, she might be even more confused.

Really, in her job, what she should know about is employment law.

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 10:21

Can’t barely hear Malone

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2025 10:21

GCITC · 17/07/2025 10:21

Anyone struggling with hearing the witness?

Yes

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:21

Unfortunately the sound on the witness isn't great now. Oh that's a little better.

Pinknotpurple · 17/07/2025 10:21

Sorry but could someone please post the Nitter link to tribunal tweets again please, I've lost it 😞

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 10:21

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 10:15

I don't think you're supposed to comment on that

People are also writing in the chat. Not necessarily people from here, but pls remember everyone we must email the court with any concerns, and not write in the chat.

The instructions do not set out everything we can and can't do but, broadly speaking, we have to behave as though we are in the court room, and for that reason I'm erring on the safe side and not commenting on anything on camera, or anything not reported by TT or in the press.

oOiluvfriendsOo · 17/07/2025 10:22

Can anyone tell me why I have to keep refreshing to get new posts. Which then takes me back to the very beginning. It is so annoying.

Yetanothernewname101 · 17/07/2025 10:22

Chrysanthemum5 · 17/07/2025 09:00

Thank you all for the discussions. I had access first time round but not this time and your updates keep me informed on the madness

I wonder how Isla will find her return to work after giving evidence? She will surely have read the news reports and know what her colleagues will have read about her.

I have a feeling she will quietly disappear and either be working somewhere else in Fife or not at all. She's pretty much made herself unemployable in that role or any similar role with her performance yesterday.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 10:22

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 10:14

Question to lawyers - what is the purpose of making this kind of allegation when questioning a witness?

Is it that this kind of argument needs to be put to the witness if it is to be used when summarising the case at the end?

Is it to prompt a reaction?

Is the argument really being presented to the judge rather than the witness?

From my point of view as an observer, it seems obvious that the witness will just disagree.

Show quote history

IANAL but as nauticant said yesterday I think NCs style is to ask questions that sort of get the respondent to agree with her, even in a roundabout way (lots of possibly, maybe, in a roundabout way, almost type answers), then drop a bombshell that does spark a reaction that gets to the main point for the judges benefit.

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:23

They've moved the mics a bit closer now.

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 10:24

I'm going to have to rely on TT I can't hear a thing!

Original poster

nauticant · 17/07/2025 10:24

Pinknotpurple · 17/07/2025 10:21

Sorry but could someone please post the Nitter link to tribunal tweets again please, I've lost it 😞

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 10:24

as requested @Pinknotpurple
https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

ickky · 17/07/2025 10:25

GM is very softly spoken so we can't hear her very well, even with the mics moved closer. I feel sorry for TT, it must be difficult for them.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 17/07/2025 10:25

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:17

On the Isla Bumba situation, it feels so jarring to me how quickly the trans community have turned on her, for misgendering under what must be an enormous amount of pressure. The 'no true ally' comment just chimes so much with the 'no true trans person' line we see so often. I'm cycling between feeling sorry for IB, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to go through her experience yesterday, and thinking, well she put herself in that position really, she seemed way out of her depth and so vague and non committal in her answers.

I also think she has been hugely let down by the people senior to her within NHS Fife, I wonder what her future holds, if she hasn't already I'd certainly be looking for another job in her position. Although the minute a potential employer googles her, that might not work out so well. What a mess.

The judge’s scathing comment right at the end when he discovered that she hadn’t visited the changing room in question says it all “Then you don’t know what we are talking about”. She is so uninterested in this case that she didn’t even visit the A&E department to find out what the fuss was all about.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 10:25

In terms of procedure, am I right in thinking that if JR questions a witness first, we can assume they were called to be a witness by the Responsdents?

So Fife called Isla Bumba and today's witness to court, not Sandie Peggie's side?

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 10:25

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:17

TBH I do feel a bit sorry for her, she has been left high and dry by her bosses. Should never have been given the job in the first place.
Keeping in mind Nicola Sturgeon was also on the TWAW line and she followed what other people were saying at the time.

I do hope she is ok.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 17/07/2025 10:26

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 00:07

I'm afraid I think Bumbrain and Bunce would instantly bond. She's just too far gone.

I wouldn’t find Bunce intimidating, per se, more ridiculous.
Certainly compared with Molly Sparkles and Sarah Jane Baker.
They’d scare the shite out of me.

FannyCann · 17/07/2025 10:26

Pithy comment from Venice Allen on X:

”Isla Bryson was the man who got men like him thrown out of women’s prisons, Isla Bumba could be the woman that gets EDI thrown out of our workplaces and institutions.”

https://x.com/roseveniceallan/status/1945712193871241319?s=46

NeedToChangeName · 17/07/2025 10:26

PennyAnnLane · 17/07/2025 09:23

Nothing has happened after my suggestion because my suggestion would cost more money and mean making actual changes, much easier to put some flags up and have a bake sale once a year for an LGBTQ charity.

Show quote history

This doesn't surprise me, sadly

I've often pointed out that rainbow bunting / pronouns on emails are an easy way of pretending to care about equality without doing the hard stuff like catering for disabilities etc

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