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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Pinknotpurple · 17/07/2025 10:27

Thanks Chariothorses

BezMills · 17/07/2025 10:27

Re: the Transbackslash on IB, I'm trying not to laugh too much. She's an ally to them, but there's no reciprocation.

Fifer : that's jist the wey the jobbie plops. Sometimes yer backside gets wet.

I'm using this nitter mirror (the .net one wasn't working this morning)

https://lightbrd.com/tribunaltweets

From TT

Judge "Big Sond" and Panel have entered the room.
Judge "Big Sond" discussing measures to manage the temperature of the room and allow for breaks.

J "Big Sond" - walking GM through the formalities, she swears, briefs her, asks her to speak slowly and takes breaks so he can take notes, turns over to JR

JR name and duration of service at Fife
GM 20 years, Gillian Malone, Head of Nursing
JR explain your role
GM leadership and oversight of nursing services
JR who reports to you
GM no one, I have no direct reports
JR who does ED report to
GM (missed)
JR - hierarchy of nursing in the hospital?
GM - only one person over me, head of acute nursing in Aberdeen
JR - who is C's line manager,
GM - names 2,
JR - who manages them
GM - ED
JR - what is your relationship with SP
GM - she works a night shift, I don't know her
JR - refs to email from Jamie Doyle, end of August to Maggie Curran, read tell us what you make of it
GM - JD was clinical nurse manager, he and ED had a meeting, ED had made him aware that SP had concerns about DU using f CR

chilling19 · 17/07/2025 10:27

Sound better

Catiette · 17/07/2025 10:28

borntobequiet · 17/07/2025 07:21

(I really didn’t like the “fantasy changing room” discussion from over night)

I didn’t either.

Full disclosure for transparency, I reported that bit.

I've learned a lot from some of the PPs contributing, and recognise it as an infuriated response to everything Peggie was put through. I think we all sometimes find that playing these endless games of pigeon-chess in which you fruitlessly experiment with different ways of demonstrating the sheer hypocrisy/ignorance of this stuff is maddening, and sometimes someone may feel tempted to break out the metaphorical "strych'nine" 🐦 insult / really brutal analogy to get it across.

But I found it deeply unpleasant, and FWR is so much better than that.

For anyone bemused by the pigeony strych'nine ref, or irritated by me or IB or whoever's now "on the stand" waffling about whatever in the 20 pages I've yet to read - or, really, for anyone just in need of a bloody break - the below is glorious!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhuMLpdnOjY

Chariothorses · 17/07/2025 10:28

I started off feeling sorry for Isla Bumba. Until she lied she didn't know what sex she was, and made her total contempt for women and their privacy/ dignity/ safety (like Sandie's) so clear compared with her determination to give men whatever they demand.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 10:29

BezMills · 17/07/2025 10:27

Re: the Transbackslash on IB, I'm trying not to laugh too much. She's an ally to them, but there's no reciprocation.

Fifer : that's jist the wey the jobbie plops. Sometimes yer backside gets wet.

I'm using this nitter mirror (the .net one wasn't working this morning)

https://lightbrd.com/tribunaltweets

From TT

Judge "Big Sond" and Panel have entered the room.
Judge "Big Sond" discussing measures to manage the temperature of the room and allow for breaks.

J "Big Sond" - walking GM through the formalities, she swears, briefs her, asks her to speak slowly and takes breaks so he can take notes, turns over to JR

JR name and duration of service at Fife
GM 20 years, Gillian Malone, Head of Nursing
JR explain your role
GM leadership and oversight of nursing services
JR who reports to you
GM no one, I have no direct reports
JR who does ED report to
GM (missed)
JR - hierarchy of nursing in the hospital?
GM - only one person over me, head of acute nursing in Aberdeen
JR - who is C's line manager,
GM - names 2,
JR - who manages them
GM - ED
JR - what is your relationship with SP
GM - she works a night shift, I don't know her
JR - refs to email from Jamie Doyle, end of August to Maggie Curran, read tell us what you make of it
GM - JD was clinical nurse manager, he and ED had a meeting, ED had made him aware that SP had concerns about DU using f CR

I do think that this could be the event that peaks IB, simply for the realisation that there's such transbacklash and lack of reciprocal support, it is however terribly unfortunate that if so, it is because she has been called to an Employment Tribunal and is yet to reflect on her own contradictions.

CantHoldMeDown · 17/07/2025 10:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Mums07 · 17/07/2025 10:30

I liked it very much

BezMills · 17/07/2025 10:32

From TT

GM - JD was clinical nurse manager, he and ED had a meeting, ED had made him aware that SP had concerns about DU using f CR. this was just for my info.
JR - I'm going to stop you, I think you are thinking of another email, no concern expressed here, generic TW has right to use f CR
GM ----
J - we are struggling to hear you (as are we)
JR - you said you had no awareness of DU joining AE at that point
GM - who I believed that to be, I believed that person with concerns to be Nurse Peggie
JR -as the staff number who identifies as a woman
GM -I'm not sure I would have know that was DU at that point
JR - another email - from JD to GM, re Datix, forwarded Datix
(JR) what is a Datix
GM - formal NHS incident reporting system
Jr - did you read at the time
GM - I was off duty over the festive period, so did not read
JR - refs to bullying/potential hate incident
GM - I thought it was correct, Datix gives you categories

(the boioioiong sound of GM standing on her first rake of the session)

Fifer : she's fell right in thon patch a jaggies, get her a dock leaf

JR - when did you read Datix
GM - 2nd Jan when I was back
JR - lets look at Datix, description, incident involving protected characteristic, what did you make of that
GM - the description contains concerning allegations

NotMyRealAccount · 17/07/2025 10:33

Re: the Transbackslash on IB, I'm trying not to laugh too much. She's an ally to them, but there's no reciprocation.

Isn't that always the way? Trans identified males appear to have utter contempt for their female "allies".

nebulousMoose · 17/07/2025 10:34

Nameychangington · 17/07/2025 07:51

Back to IBs job ad (excellent sleuthing there!), IB doesn't meet the minimum criteria."it is essential that you have leadership experience in the field of Equality and Diversity." IB was a covid contact tracer, and before that a barmaid.

The jd and person spec are pathetically vague (wouldn't get through vacancy approval board here) but she doesn't even meet the essential criteria. On Trac ( NHS job application software) a person who doesn't meet the essential criteria shouldn't even been shortlisted, let alone interviewed, let alone get the job.

I thought discussion yesterday of her having friends in high places being the explanation of how she got the job seemed far fetched, but now I'm not so sure. It shouldn't be possible.

And as an aside, compare her JD and person spec with any of the jds and person specs for band 7 ward managers currently on NHS jobs - substantial experience, post qualification specialist study, management experience, budget holding, managing sickness and rota for dozens of staff, proven excellence in patient care, reams of other essential requirements and core duties. It's insulting to band 7 nurses.

I worked as a health visitor in the Midlands. We were chronically short of health visitors, and the management people were under so much pressure that they kept leaving, clearing the way for people who had no idea what they were doing.

I needed to make a good case for my being on the interview panel, recruiting for a person who would be working closely with me in a quite deprived and under-resourced area. The management reluctantly agreed, but going through the applications was torturous - the line manager in charge of the interviewing could not be bothered to read the applications fully and did not notice whether the essential criteria were met. Also, in a hilarious attempt at one-upmanship, she placed me on a very low chair at the same desk as her very high, luxury chair, to read the applications.

Eventually we shortlisted and invited the candidates.

There were several no-shows, which surprised me. After two attempts at interviewing, we had 3 candidates to choose from. The line manager liked the cheapest person best, but that person had no child protection experience being newly qualified, and eventually we recruited the best candidate.

Had I not been there, the cheapest most inexperienced candidate would have got the job, been unable to do the job properly, and of course then have been promoted into a more managerial position so she could boss the experienced health visitors around and teach them to suck eggs. I know this because it happened after I left. I was in touch with my colleague, who bore the brunt of these fatuous, baseless decisions to recruit "cheaper" people.

maltravers · 17/07/2025 10:36

It should be amazing that “concerning allegations” are not got to the bottom of immediately by speaking to BOTH parties concerned, without delay.

PutThe · 17/07/2025 10:37

Yetanothernewname101 · 17/07/2025 10:22

I have a feeling she will quietly disappear and either be working somewhere else in Fife or not at all. She's pretty much made herself unemployable in that role or any similar role with her performance yesterday.

If I were her I'd go back to my birth surname, at least professionally.

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 10:38

GM is describing her current role, but she took up her current position on 1 July 2025. https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/04/nhs-fife-has-announced-the-appointment-of-gillian-mcauley-as-the-health-board-s-new-director-of-nursing/

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 10:40

Yetanothernewname101 · 17/07/2025 10:22

I have a feeling she will quietly disappear and either be working somewhere else in Fife or not at all. She's pretty much made herself unemployable in that role or any similar role with her performance yesterday.

I'd have thought the same after the abysmal performance of the ERCC trustees and employees in that ET but they've just moved onto other 3rd sector jobs in Scotland. There's names that come up again and again, just in different organisations.

Actual capability and knowledge doesn't seem to come into it.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 10:40

From TT

JR - another doc; harassment policy, are you familiar
GM - yes
JR - explain to Tribunal if you thought any of these bullet points in policy were relevant
GM - harassing behaviour, allegations included inappropriate questions, derogatory comments
J (Big Sond) - use numbers
GM - goes through numbers, also number 12.
JR - now hate incident policy, are you familiar
GM - no, I never had to use it before
JR - can you read the policy, tell us which bullet points might apply
GM - the last one, 6, harassment or victimisation
JR - back to Datix, describes you as investigator, explain your role
GM - it automatically assigned me as investigator, but for me to re-assign
J (Big Sond) - where are we
JR - now to feedback message from GM in the Datix, why did you say concerning report
GM - when I read the Datix, I was concerned, serious allegations, untested at this point, but something that needed to be i/x
JR - timing, when did u first become aware of incident
GM -return to work on 2 Jan
JR - how did you become aware
GM - it was a short summary of the Datix in my inbox, plus email from JD
JR - what was your awareness of relationship between SP & DU
GM no awareness
JR - aware of any tension between SP & DU
GM - no
JR - between SP and anyone else
GM - no

Fifer : Wee Sondie is a sound nurse likes, puts in a guid shift and gets on wi abdy

SirChenjins · 17/07/2025 10:40

I have the dubious pleasure of attending a meeting later in the year where IB is also scheduled to be present. It will be interesting.

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 10:41

nebulousMoose · 17/07/2025 10:34

I worked as a health visitor in the Midlands. We were chronically short of health visitors, and the management people were under so much pressure that they kept leaving, clearing the way for people who had no idea what they were doing.

I needed to make a good case for my being on the interview panel, recruiting for a person who would be working closely with me in a quite deprived and under-resourced area. The management reluctantly agreed, but going through the applications was torturous - the line manager in charge of the interviewing could not be bothered to read the applications fully and did not notice whether the essential criteria were met. Also, in a hilarious attempt at one-upmanship, she placed me on a very low chair at the same desk as her very high, luxury chair, to read the applications.

Eventually we shortlisted and invited the candidates.

There were several no-shows, which surprised me. After two attempts at interviewing, we had 3 candidates to choose from. The line manager liked the cheapest person best, but that person had no child protection experience being newly qualified, and eventually we recruited the best candidate.

Had I not been there, the cheapest most inexperienced candidate would have got the job, been unable to do the job properly, and of course then have been promoted into a more managerial position so she could boss the experienced health visitors around and teach them to suck eggs. I know this because it happened after I left. I was in touch with my colleague, who bore the brunt of these fatuous, baseless decisions to recruit "cheaper" people.

You have to assume that people who do this don't actually believe that the position is necessary.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 10:43

I picked up on that too BezMills
JR - aware of any tension between SP & DU
GM - no
JR - between SP and anyone else
GM - no

So much for SP being 'difficult', if GM had never been made aware of any tension between SP and anyone else.

FeedbackProvider · 17/07/2025 10:43

Did others already mention that when gender supremacist Isla Bumba was asked yesterday about the meaning of “LGBT ally” in her email signature, she said it meant that she was a trans ally - no mention of L or G or B apparently

From Tribunal Tweets;
”NC [to bundle] LGBT ally. Why does that appear on your email signature. [missed - sound]
NC positions you on one side of debate
IB I'm an ally to t ppl, doesn't mean I'm not to w”

KPriestley · 17/07/2025 10:43

Hey everyone, missed yesterday due to work but I'm remote today and ready to watch. Hasn't started yet has it?

RavenPie · 17/07/2025 10:45

I was thinking if I were IB and was applying for post MSc jobs I would be applying for a ton of stuff on NHS jobs and I could probably talk the talk at interview (trust values, leadership, communities, diversity etc,) with skills honed from level 7 essay writing and I would 100% take the job if they were daft enough to offer it to me. I might internally ask the question “what if I’m shit at it” but my mid 20s answer would be “that’s their problem” not “I’ll have to explain that at the tribunal”.
But she’s been in this job about 3 years. This is the biggest problem in the trust and she’s not even looked at the changing facilities in the department, had a face-to-face with KS, ED or SP or even BU, not read any of the relevant law and legislation around it etc, she hasn’t even checked her email/diary/teams to see who she was in meetings with, and didn’t bother to take notes in the meetings. She’s turned up with months and months of notice completely unprepared. She couldn’t even be arsed to set up a meeting with HR and ED when ED first approached her after SPs first complaint. Being cheeky enough to apply for the job is one thing but she’s making no effort to do it now she’s got it.

A quick Facebook stalk shows no obvious trust influence on her dad’s side at least. Maybe they just thought she was enthusiastic and the right amount of woke busy she doesn’t even tick any “lived experience” boxes in any meaningful way, which people in these roles often do.

tbf I thought ED was worse, and as a clinical manager of decades experience had less of an excuse.

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 10:45

FeedbackProvider · 17/07/2025 10:43

Did others already mention that when gender supremacist Isla Bumba was asked yesterday about the meaning of “LGBT ally” in her email signature, she said it meant that she was a trans ally - no mention of L or G or B apparently

From Tribunal Tweets;
”NC [to bundle] LGBT ally. Why does that appear on your email signature. [missed - sound]
NC positions you on one side of debate
IB I'm an ally to t ppl, doesn't mean I'm not to w”

Edited

You've mixed your Isla Bs up
I read it before you edited 😀

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 17/07/2025 10:45

nebulousMoose · 17/07/2025 10:34

I worked as a health visitor in the Midlands. We were chronically short of health visitors, and the management people were under so much pressure that they kept leaving, clearing the way for people who had no idea what they were doing.

I needed to make a good case for my being on the interview panel, recruiting for a person who would be working closely with me in a quite deprived and under-resourced area. The management reluctantly agreed, but going through the applications was torturous - the line manager in charge of the interviewing could not be bothered to read the applications fully and did not notice whether the essential criteria were met. Also, in a hilarious attempt at one-upmanship, she placed me on a very low chair at the same desk as her very high, luxury chair, to read the applications.

Eventually we shortlisted and invited the candidates.

There were several no-shows, which surprised me. After two attempts at interviewing, we had 3 candidates to choose from. The line manager liked the cheapest person best, but that person had no child protection experience being newly qualified, and eventually we recruited the best candidate.

Had I not been there, the cheapest most inexperienced candidate would have got the job, been unable to do the job properly, and of course then have been promoted into a more managerial position so she could boss the experienced health visitors around and teach them to suck eggs. I know this because it happened after I left. I was in touch with my colleague, who bore the brunt of these fatuous, baseless decisions to recruit "cheaper" people.

In one Trust I worked for the "Head of Governance" was a young woman who had jumped from a minor admin role to one of the highest paid jobs in the Trust. When Staff Side Sec and I had a meeting with her (me as SS Chair) after her appointment I asked her what "Governance" meant. She said, "Who knows? It's just one of those words people use 🤷‍♀️".

Her only qualifications were that she wore tennis-level short skirts, was giggly, had good legs and at the next meeting was sat on the Chief Exec's lap 😵‍💫

Jaws2025 · 17/07/2025 10:45

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 10:40

I'd have thought the same after the abysmal performance of the ERCC trustees and employees in that ET but they've just moved onto other 3rd sector jobs in Scotland. There's names that come up again and again, just in different organisations.

Actual capability and knowledge doesn't seem to come into it.

I noticed this recently - one of the former trustees is speaking at it
festivalofpolitics.citizenticket.co.uk/events/festival-of-politics/the-rise-of-misogyny/

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