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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

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18
NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 10:00

Today will be interesting.

We’ll find out whether the “stop/start/stop” nature of the investigation was down to incompetence or interference from others.

A reminder that failure to disclose the initial investigation was one of the reasons why the tribunal had to pause for months.

Rainonwednesday · 17/07/2025 10:00

ConspicuouslyLawAbidingWoman · 17/07/2025 06:45

IANAL but I think if one was arguing a case about being fired for belief in gender ideology it would probably be easier to argue it either as a non belief in the protected GC beliefs or as discrimination around gender reassignment - in the same way as you don’t have to be disabled to be the victim of disability discrimination.

What I can’t understand here is why the Fife defence isn’t so much more straightforward. The Scottish Government repeatedly told us transwomen should be treated as women. At the time they were in court winning that very debate. We took training and advice from Stonewall who were championed by the Scottish government as the experts in this area. We recognise with hindsight that we came to the wrong conclusions but we behaved in line with the most up to date legal thinking at the time.

ok it’s a crap defence. But it’s significantly better than all these people claiming they don’t know their own sex and it’s so complicated and hard to understand.

I think its because they are fanatics who believe it.

I see this in my own public sector organisation.

Decision makers take their lead from Equalities managers (EM) because they pay them to be experts in this area. The decision makers don't understand that the Equalities leads have not kept on top of the law in this area but are driven by ideology, so they believe what the EM tells them. And the Equalities managers don't realise this about themselves either because they are talk to all the other equalities leads in other organisations who all think like they do.

Its a genuine example of institutionalised incompetence. Across the UK public sector.

ickky · 17/07/2025 10:02

It has just started

GallantKumquat · 17/07/2025 10:04

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2025 09:46

A few comments from observing yesterday afternoon, once I finally managed to get sound and video.

IB was very reluctant to answer questions, as evidenced by the long paused before answers on many occasions. She used several techniques, often repeatedly, to avoid straight answers to questions:

  • "not necessarily" to mean that we can ignore the people the question was centring
  • "maybe potentially" to mean "you have a point, but you can't get me to admit it clearly"
  • "hazard a guess that I would be female" to mean "you know, and I know, that I am obviously female, but it would be more than my job's allyship's worth to admit that"
  • "that would be excluding/isolating" when referring to a trans person, but the same action in reference to a GC woman would need to be "referred to HR"
  • "potentially" means "yes, but I don't want to admit it"
  • "to an extent, yes" in response to "your job is to advocate for everyone's rights"

Unfortunately for IB, the judge is likely to have seen right through all this, and I would be astonished if in the judgement her wriggling obfuscation is not highlighted.

In my opinion, her most effective ploy was repeatedly referring to following statutory guidance, but she could hardly answer every question with that, and she really had nothing else. Copying and pasting other DEI policies didn't come across anywhere near as well. And as several posters have highlighted, her bias towards (LGB)TQ allyship was blatant, and NC shone a searchlight on it.

NC's allegation yesterday was quite serious,

<From TT>
NC Why didn't you (IB) just say go to HR This looks more elaborate. I suggest the plan between you and KS was to make sure SP was punished.

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 10:06

ickky · 17/07/2025 10:02

It has just started

I'm still WFTCHTJ

BezMills · 17/07/2025 10:07

From TT

Expected witness this morning is Gillian Malone (GM), Director of Nursing at NHS Fife. Was director of emergency nursing during the period relevant to the tribunal.

In person observers are being admitted to the tribunal rooms now

Let's go!

CompleteGinasaur · 17/07/2025 10:08

"Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride..."

Signalbox · 17/07/2025 10:10

I'm worried I'm going to have no sound. I'm in the room but I didn't hear WFTCHTJ when in the waiting room. I tried downloading Chrome but it made my laptop crash. I'm giving Firefox a go now. Has anyone managed to use their phone to log in?

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 10:10

@nauticant Thanks for the information about alternatives to nitter. I may just ignore the virus checker though.

Scottishtizzler · 17/07/2025 10:12

Has the coverage commenced as yet? I've just got the black screen with the crossed out names up the side in the chat section today.

borntobequiet · 17/07/2025 10:13

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 09:57

I don't know why this is, but men remove jumpers by pulling them over their heads from the back of the collar and women cross their arms in front of them, take the hem and lift it up.

I knew a TW once who would always sit in that man-spreading way.

I remove jumpers from the front hem, turning them inside out in the process. I put them back on in the opposite way. Is this usual?

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:13

I have visuals, the solicitors and barristers are there, looks like we're waiting for the judges. It's interesting seeing the legal teams chatting casually while they wait.

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 10:14

GallantKumquat · 17/07/2025 10:04

NC's allegation yesterday was quite serious,

<From TT>
NC Why didn't you (IB) just say go to HR This looks more elaborate. I suggest the plan between you and KS was to make sure SP was punished.

Question to lawyers - what is the purpose of making this kind of allegation when questioning a witness?

Is it that this kind of argument needs to be put to the witness if it is to be used when summarising the case at the end?

Is it to prompt a reaction?

Is the argument really being presented to the judge rather than the witness?

From my point of view as an observer, it seems obvious that the witness will just disagree.

hholiday · 17/07/2025 10:14

In response to yesterday’s question about who SP’s original complaint about the changing room situation went to, I think this formed part of Esther Davison’s evidence. I’ve been trying to look back through the threads but can’t find it now.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2025 10:14

Someone's just adjusted the view, and I can't see the witness's face.

ickky · 17/07/2025 10:14

The clerk just adjusted the camera in the hearing room and now we can't see the witness as that part of the room is obscured. FFS

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 10:15

I don't think you're supposed to comment on that

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2025 10:16

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 10:15

I don't think you're supposed to comment on that

Nonsense.

nauticant · 17/07/2025 10:16

For those with browser woes, if you can't get Chrome to work consider Microsoft Edge (particularly on Windows) and Brave.

OP posts:
NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 10:16

ThreeWordHarpy · 16/07/2025 23:02

I’ve posted on previous threads about DH gradually getting interested in the hearing, helped by him being Scottish. Today he even told me Isla’s name and job! I use him as my barometer of general public opinion as someone interested in current affairs but not immersed in this topic.

Anyway, after the relatively accurate reporting on the BBC news at six we briefly discussed what I’d learned here and on TT. He asked -how did Sandie know that DrU is a transwoman and not a woman, because from the photos he’s seen he wouldn’t immediately think “man”.

I told him it was blinking obvious if you had seen a video of him moving, and described when I saw him give evidence. Plus Sandie is a very experienced nurse so well versed in differences in anatomy between men and women. He accepted that quite happily, but it does show that if you rely on mainstream media that you don’t necessarily get the full story.

NC's first qus to SP were really helpful in that regard comparing BU's appearance in court - long hair, make up, dress, with BU's appearance at work in A& E: tall, wearing scrubs, receeding hairline, hair pulled back in ponytail.

Wearing scrubs is almost always going to be a giveaway for someone who has transitioned in name only and in adulthood. People who are conscious of their bodies or have modesty issues have to think ahead about sizing/underlayers.

When I was being really well cared for by a nursing team, when I was half-awake by the bedside of a v sick relative overnight, I knew when a male nurse or doctor entered the room because they made the biggest effort to "announce" themselves and not startle me, and they made sure to give me a lot of space because they were obviously sensitive to the fact that a male nurse walking in on a sleeping woman was different to a female nurse. And as I wasn't the patient, they could have technically been brisk about getting on with the job, but they were being sensitive to the situation, and just behaving like people do when they know they are the ones with responsibility.

BU blundering along with a massive sense of entitlement was always going to be a risk for Fife. The entitlement weighing even heavier than the trans status imo.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 10:16

*Passes the popcorn around

ickky · 17/07/2025 10:16

It's fine, I'm not commenting on the case, just the room arrangements.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 10:17

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2025 10:16

Nonsense.

Ok. I was just under the impression that we're not supposed to comment on anything we are viewing

katmarie · 17/07/2025 10:17

On the Isla Bumba situation, it feels so jarring to me how quickly the trans community have turned on her, for misgendering under what must be an enormous amount of pressure. The 'no true ally' comment just chimes so much with the 'no true trans person' line we see so often. I'm cycling between feeling sorry for IB, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to go through her experience yesterday, and thinking, well she put herself in that position really, she seemed way out of her depth and so vague and non committal in her answers.

I also think she has been hugely let down by the people senior to her within NHS Fife, I wonder what her future holds, if she hasn't already I'd certainly be looking for another job in her position. Although the minute a potential employer googles her, that might not work out so well. What a mess.

nauticant · 17/07/2025 10:17

I can't imagine that we're restricted from discussing technical issues in viewing the stream separate from the content of the stream itself.

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