NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

IMPORTANT NOTICE. According to PRESIDENTIAL GUIDANCE ON OPEN JUSTICE IN EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL PROCEEDINGS IN SCOTLAND dated 14 July 2025:

... members of the public who are observing a hearing ... remotely, and who wish to use live, text based communications during the hearing, must apply to the Tribunal for permission.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Presidential-Guidance-Open-Justice-in-Employment-Tribunal-Proceedings-in-Scotland.pdf

The term "live, text based communications" could include Mumsnet Talk and assuming it does then we need to follow the Presidential Guidance.

So here's my request. With each passing day there'll be a temptation for those of us watching the hearing stream to relax into being more free and easy with chatting about it. Bearing in mind the guidance, we should resist this. For those of us watching, it might be best for us to start each day with a reset of what our approach is to be and then over the day that each time we're tempted to post anything here to do a quick mental check of whether the post is actually about the contents of the stream.

It was gutting last time when public remote access was pulled and it would be horrible for that to happen again.

Hello WFTCHTJ my old friend. 😀

I'm truly astounded that NHS Fife barrister, Jane Russell, is still saying this about the Supreme Court Ruling:

"..... it as an “abstract case about representation on public boards”, arguing its implications were disputed and that it was “not about toilets”"

At risk of tone-policing... there's a fine line between commenting on the utter nonsense IB spoke and making it personal. Could I suggest that - ethically and strategically - posters refrain from the latter? There's a real person behind that name - and probably some desperately worried parents, siblings, friends etc. And we really want to retain the right to comment on the case in this forum.

The accusations of her being a racist didn't take long to appear.

Blimey. 400? Gosh.

I found it far easier just to look at the stream of Tribunal Tweets........and then discuss them later on here.

I will give Isla exactly the same thought and consideration she gave to Sandie and the other female staff.

I think because the person specs are so vague, they are looking for a 'type' of person rather than a skill set. Which is poor in itself.

I don't mean that in a racist way, most EDI officers I have met in real life have been young able bodied white women with a slightly alternative dress sense. EDI teams would function much better if they were more diverse in the true sense of the word.

You can tell from the above how far behind I am again! 🙄Reminds me of sports day at school, plodding around the track, a whole lap behind the best.

I'm still puzzling over what IB had in mind when she said women can rape men. In the context of discussion about violence I don't think she had in mind a TW/TM scenario. And I don't think, given her woeful knowledge of the law, that she would be aware of a 'technical' rape offence under the concept of joint enterprise.

So I think she's probably absorbed something online relating to another jurisdiction where the definitions are not the same as here. Somehow it fits with her thinking so she believes it and says it with complete conviction.

As JR kept pointing out, she's not a lawyer. Why let accuracy get in the way?

It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

9 more days of evidence, how much more lunacy can NHS Fife provide, how many more ludicrous headlines can the leadership survive. I know how they got here, enthralled to stonewall and gender ideology to the detriment of everything else. But ye gods, let this be a lesson to all public services.

To be fair, there is a whole report about exactly what she said in 'The Times'.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/sandie-peggie-trans-women-tribunal-hnm65jgf6

Good morning team! Thanks as ever @nauticant you hard-working organisational legend.

If needed, I'm happy to do the TT transliteration transposting cross-site copy-pastey thing for this morning's session. Happy if someone else does it, I don't need to be needed, iyswim

It's so soothing

The Courier is a fine local paper that has really covered this case from the start - well before the big papers got involved. You can get a subscription for three months for £1 and follow their live stream of the tribunal.

They really deserve support

I get that, I really do. It's gobsmackingly enraging and distressing just to read, never mind experience. But I'd rather show we're capable of what we're arguing for here - genuine equality and respect, not the blind, partisan, pseudo- crap she appears to have been peddling. I'll leave it there, though. As with sports day, I don't feel as equipped to comment on how we run the race as the truly committed runners already 10 pages ahead of me!

Am out today, so will only fall further behind, too... 😩😅

The Courier is great. I'm very much looking forward to Jim Spence weighing in on this. He pulls no punches 😁

Ah the Courier, I remember it well. Paper of choice for the older Fifers when I was a lad delivering the papers. The blowins from the central belt were more likely to take a red-top, but the old school mainly took the courier. Heavy bloody things mind you.

Themperor?

Straight into the lead on funniest post top ten.

I'm actually surprised at some of the takes in favour of SP on reddit. Where people usually only recite the TRA dogma or face getting banned by captured mods.

This chimes with my experience. Young, middle-class and highly educated women seem particularly vulnerable to this kind of brain fuzz. They swallowed too many "be kind" pills early on and seem incapable of critical thinking.