NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

Women have been (rarely) convicted in the UK, but that's been under joint enterprise when they've been participating in rape alongside a male accomplice.

I think people often go on what seems common sense (any kind of nonconsensual penetration), and maybe on American law where the definitions are different - often in the US it's 'statutory rape' cases involving adult women having sex with underage boys - where, counterintuitively, the guilty party is the one being penetrated.

I don't believe a strap on would count in the UK. A transman's neophallus might, but I've never heard of a case where that's been tested.

Yes that would make sense but I suspect nobody complained because they had been scared into silence.

The fact that all the high heidyins (Scottish term for bosses) had declared pronouns, let alone how their responses to Sandie played out, would have been enough to ensure no one complained or supported her.

They didn’t expect her to see it through obviously — clearly they are very practiced and ensuring nurses with 30 year careers (unblemished) depart without fuss when issues are raised.

The culture was without a doubt hostile and so it is not at all credible, in my inexpert view, for JR to use the ‘no other complaints’ as a reasonable defence for senior staff not considering the impact of mixed sex changing rooms on their female staff.

If Bumba doesn't know what sex is, how does she know what sexual discrimination is? If she doesn't know if she's a woman, why is she so sure Upton is? If sex is so impossible to ascertain, why have supposedly SSS at all? Why not openly scrap them and have one massive, designated unisex space?

Steel-bumbing it, the answers I think she'd give according to the ideology are:

• Sexual discrimination is an obsolete term for "gender discrimination". Discrimination based on imperceptible biology isn't a thing - people only discriminate on perceived gender.
• She does know she's a woman (gender) - the question was about her biological sex, which is nebulous. Upton is a woman (gender) because he says he is - that's concrete.
• You shouldn't have single-sex spaces, and we never have, because sex is imperceptible - they've always been single-gender spaces.
• You shouldn't really have single-gender spaces either, cos gender isn't binary. Everything being mixed-gender would be ideal. Whereever things are still binary-gendered it's crucial everyone who's LGBTQIX gets to go in whichever they want to make sure they're validated - validation is the primary purpose of the separation. (But non-LGBTQIX people have to continue to use their assigned one to help with this validation).

I think I have shared this story on here before under a different username, but the EDI lead at my workplace, it’s a voluntary extra role rather than a full time job, sent out an email asking for suggestions about how to make our office more inclusive and I responded that if they would allow job shares or part-time working for our role then it would mean that more women returned after mat leave, instead of coming back to lower paid roles which were more flexible, when I bumped into her later on she said she hadn’t considered women as part of DEI she thought it was just about ‘transgenders and gays’ - this woman’s main job is as a solicitor, she has children.

Isla Bumba could have been doing lots of EDI stuff as an activist perhaps. Maybe involved in student groups promoting the rights of minorities or similar. Student union inclusion committee?That might be enough?

As for ‘passing’, I shortcut the plot of a crime drama a while back by clocking the TW actor as he ran up to crime scene tape in the background.

A few scenes later said character was interviews and for a while it all hinges on that character. It was obvious it would because of the previous scene.

The police officers interviewing him didn’t mention even once that there was anything unusual about the character, that they needed to make any additional considerations- like history under a different name etc. It was totally glossed over- excellent for inclusion, rubbish for crime investigation.

Sidetrack. Was just thinking about how very easy it is to spot a man dressed as a woman in a plot second at a distance.

The take on this case in r/Scotland:

www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/1m16fq1/sandie_peggie_cleared_of_gross_misconduct/?sort=old

Picking up this post from last night. Reading the Times this morning I notice the article on the case (headline "I don't know my own sex" 😂has 1.2k comments underneath - massive for a Times article. Obviously couldn't read them all but didn't spot any in support of Fife / Upton.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/sandie-peggie-trans-women-tribunal-hnm65jgf6

Archive link:
archive.ph/1Kwwy

@CassOle I don’t think the TiW argument would stand up in court - but as we’ve seen, stranger things have happened!

They’re saying the quiet part out loud now aren’t they? ‘We need to control the narrative’ JFC.

I think time might be as nebulous as sex at this tribunal …who even knows what time it is?

Love this rather dry comment from the Herald journalist writing the update on this case

"For someone whose £60,000-a-year job is to lead on equality and human rights, the 20-something seemed a bit vague on equality and human rights legislation."

That’s is shocking! And if it weren’t for IB I would think this is a problem caused by the voluntary nature of the role where there is often fewer expectations of position holders to be well versed but IB has proved this is equally try of professional posts. What happened after your suggestion? Did she go and learn about it? Or stay complacent?

I don't believe a strap on would count in the UK. A transman's neophallus might, but I've never heard of a case where that's been tested.

I think the transphallus wouldn’t count as since the SC judgement we know it belongs to a woman, and women don’t have functional penises. Or something.

Just writing about it seems stupid.

😮
We NEEED more reaction emojis!

A solicitor... blimey.

How revealing!
Is it too late to have this presented as evidence of attitudes of those who share these radical beliefs?

Yes - one of the things Michael Foran noted in his podcast yesterday was that she had looked up the law as it applies to services, but not employers.

Being completely honest, I didn't realise until recently that equality legislation is context specific - but then I don't have a senior job in EDI.

Nothing has happened after my suggestion because my suggestion would cost more money and mean making actual changes, much easier to put some flags up and have a bake sale once a year for an LGBTQ charity.

In the 8 years before they started recording some men's crimes as women's there were 0 rapes committed by women. In the 8 years after there were over 400 rapes committed by women. Either women have suddenly found an enthusiasm for joint endeavour rape or a lot of men suddenly discover that they are actually women when charged with rape. Hmm.. tough one to decipher.
That is why TRAs hate the UK definition of rape being penetration with a penis. Only males can commit this crime. All other crimes it is hidden and they can say 'women do it too'. But rape gives a lie to what is going on.
Once organisations are forced to follow the supreme court ruling we must turn our attention to crime stats and end the practice of recording crime by self declared sex.

This has gone completely mainstream and the overwhelming majority of people are responding with incredulity. Maybe we should thank IB for her sterling work yesterday, she smugly thought she was cementing her place on the handmaidens charter, when in reality she has brought this whole ridiculous, insidious, ideology out into the light, and many more people are seeing that the Emperor is actually stark naked.

for anyone who wants a summary of yesterday’s proceedings (I’m on holiday so not able to sit here all day for commentary as I did in Feb) chatGPT gave me a very factual summary of proceedings and implications. I thought it might have been quite biased based on some questions I’ve asked in the past, but I was very surprised.
IB really is a fool, bless her.
She has a degree and a masters (and indeed breasts and a vagina) but still doesn’t know if she’s a woman or not. You have to question the credibility of someone with that level of stupidity.

Although I take back “bless her”; she tried to ruin SP’s life and has doubled down thereafter.

I really want to hear what KS has to say. Hoping that’s today.

Stuck in the hospital today with a possibly sedated DS, and the signal is terrible in there.

You might be 1 or 2 new threads in front by then depending on how today goes.

I will try and catch up where signal allows but otherwise might be relying on substack and asking questions that I've missed others asking or being answered if the signal truly is that dire.

Sounds like we need "Ability to recognise biological sex" to be made an Essential Criteria for a job in the health service. Who'd have thought it?

When I fed the substacks into it yesterday out of curiosity, I asked it did it think IBs views on trans inclusion at the expense of women's dignity harmed women's rights and it kept saying no, not inherently...

I wanted to scream ARE YOU READING THE SAME THING I'M READING

It did agree with me that IB was probably not the best fit for the role though.

Yes, plus the fact that people dislike what they perceive as overpaid pointless public sector positions. This case really does have it all.

That article mentioning what she gets paid has really annoyed me.

Band 5 nurses like SP have almost no hope of ever achieving band 7 pay - partly because so few nursing posts at that level exist and partly because the expectations of what you need for those roles are increasingly hard to come by - cpd, funded external courses etc are all in scare supply. There are thousands of nurses who have decades of experience and multiple specialist skills being paid far less than someone who had a couple of years of COVID tracing behind her and walked into this with almost nothing more asked of her. She then gets to weigh in on their disciplinary issues (and I think NC did a good job of demonstrating that that was nowhere near the remit of her role).

Nurses on far less have to revalidate with a portfolio and pay for their registration with the nmc. This then means they are held accountable for absolutely every word, deed and action and can be struck off any time.

The NHS needs to sort out AFC. It's simply not fair to have such different expectations and requirements through what are meant to be equal bands.