NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Continuation thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Edited to add: I think the Aston Uni issue has now stopped and has presumably been dealt with. I remember seeing a thread from MNHQ (I think) which closed this off.

Not really.

Update here. Not going to derail the thread but it's not especially reassuring.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/5072884-corpus-2

Thank you @nauticant for the new thread, and for putting up with us all clearly having a lot to say on this topic.

My attempt at Gender Identity definition.

Transwomen
A male who wants to dress as a woman, wear makeup and women's clothing.
They may had body dysmorphia believing their body is wrong
They may be A sexual predator

If they just liked women's clothing but are still a man, they'd be a transvestite rather than a trans-sexual.
I completely agree men should be allowed to wear whatever they want but clothing and makeup isn't what makes people male or female.

Transman
A women who wants to prevent to be male. More likely to be some form of body dysmorphia rather than for sexual reasons.

Women are generally free to wear male styled clothing without question or the need to have a label

In a parallel universe, (worryingly not so) far, far away.....

Poor Pete is now in a serious condition and is sadly expected not to make it, after the doctor treating him got lost in a quandary of which sex she was, while focusing on not hurting his feelings instead of the results of the blood test which could then have led to an intervention that saved her life.

If the doctor had remembered that Pete was male, no matter what pronouns are being used, his blood test results would have shown as being way too low for the natural male range in [insert relevant marker here] and urgent care could have been given.

The doctor spoke to press earlier today and confirmed that, although this is expected to be a tragic loss of life, Pete will have been thankful that someone was prioritising the sanctity of gender identity at such a critical moment. And that, despite it eventually being confirmed that Pete was a "cis" male after all the confusion, after he passes away he will become a martyr to all trans people. He will be remembered as such every 20th November. The doctor exited the press conference with a stunning and brave flamboyant wave of a giant Pride Progress Flag, while everyone clapped for Pete and all that she stood for.

(That exchange with NC would be hilarious if the potential impact of this enforced belief wasn't so serious)

Because someone rewrote 'Uptown Girl' earlier (sorry forgotten who), and in the spirit of thread filling, and because I'm still laughing at it, I'm just putting this here
https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/659738/upton-girl-living-in-a-an-upton-world-ie-a-man-s-world

@BonfireLady I often feel like I’m in a parallel universe. 🙄

There’s been lots of evidence on how effective the medicine Upton said he was taking, as there are differences between men and women. The medical research says men and women and the side effects and success rates are sex dependent. At what point does he admit he is a man?

At what point does he admit he is a man?

When it's expedient to do so again.

Or when Hell freezes over.

I looked at the YouTube of the 2023 piss protest. I think the person who posted may have been passing (no pun intended) and just wtf filmed it. Anyway in the description

One of the bottles of urine was made to look like a bomb so police had to carry out controlled explosion.

I don't understand why there weren't arrests.

One of the bottles of urine was made to look like a bomb so police had to carry out controlled explosion.

🤮

Hats off to the poor people who had to clean up after that.

And on the subject of the EHRC, Baroness Falkner is showing incredible grit by getting involved in this Fife case. Around the same time as this protest, she was undergoing her own personal metaphorical wave of piss:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67214229.amp

Apologies if someone has already posted about this and I missed it between responses. Having caught up with this thread once I've realised it's still pretty easy to get behind because of the pace at which it's moving!

Ah.

I had a bit of a dig around I couldn't see anything more recent than this comment in a thread (but I appreciate there may be something elsewhere):

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus?reply=135094282&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

I'm aware it's a minor derail but as this thread is almost full and people have moved onto the next one, I thought it worth linking it here for completeness, if some people reading these threads weren't aware of what had been happening.

It's great that we have this area of the internet to share information about the vast subject of gender identity and its impact on society. Sadly, it's not a massive surprise that are those who might see this value in a more nefarious way.

It’s like the people who threatened JKR, the LSE(?) student with the vile presentation, the OU student with the 3D printed gun - the sacred caste operate in full view, protected by a culture of immunity and impunity.

How have these fuckers been getting away with this shit for so long?😡

To calm us for a transition to the continuation thread, I offer the delightful thread about the heritage, culture and recipes of Protestant traybakes (with related discussion of scones and NI expertise in cardiology).

www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/3527870-Which-is-the-tastiest-Protestant-traybake

I’ll have a pot of tea with mine please.

I reckon the Bluestocking will be happy to oblige.

I’d like something stronger but thought a pot of tea sounded more respectable 😆

I have looked at the documents and pleadings at the Supreme Court.

"Following FWS1, the Respondent issued new statutory guidance. This is the guidance currently under challenge. It states that, under the ASP 2018, the definition of “woman” was the same as under the EA 2010. It also stated that a person with a GRC recognising that their gender is female has the sex of a woman."

It appears that a GRC recognises that the gender of a male is female and has the sex of a woman.

I honestly thought it was the other way around, the gender would be woman and the sex would be female.

It is all nonsense and baloney, and how can anyone respect the law if it rules against FWS, or determines that pigs can fly?

For the best pot of tea you need to Barry's.

ffs they need to abolish 'gender' as conceptual thing a human being can suffer from in the real physical world.

Has anyone seen an audit about how much public money was spent on Stonewall diversity training? If this is now found to be incompatible with the law - EA and Workplace Regs - how can they be held to account for all the mess/further expense created? If there’s a clear link between the Stonewall advice and Tribunal claims lost where’s the redress for the public purse? How would anyone find these figures? I feel a dossier coming on…

Barry’s Gold is understood, of course.