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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/02/2025 23:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

OP posts:
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18
Greyskybluesky · 18/02/2025 13:14

rebmacesrevda · 18/02/2025 13:05

The petition to "fully repeal" the GRA is approaching 10,000 signatures, at which point the UK govt are obligated to respond. It needs 100,000 to be considered for debate in parliament. It runs until August. (NB: It's not my petition! I'm highlighting it because it's one way of making our voices heard that cannot be ignored.)

On the petition map, Scotland is looking awful red and angry, and I was interested to see which areas of England are too. I was surprised to see Brighton has a fair few signatures, and I was pondering why, as Brighton is well-known for being left-wing/ inclusive/ woke etc. I think I found the reason:
Sarah Summers. I've not seen her name on these threads so far, but I believe she may be lurking on mumsnet; please look up her case on crowdjustice.com.

Another day, another witch-hunt.

Thanks for the reminder! Signed now.
I love those petition maps. Unsurprisingly dark red in and around Fife.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/02/2025 13:17

There were some perceptive and interesting posts on page 40 of the previous thread, from Roving PublicEnquiry, thenosiesttermagant and Datun among others, about the instinctive wariness (to put it very mildly) that women experience in woodland at dusk and similar environments.

Apologies again for a man's perspective, but I think this is worth sharing. I accept that I cannot have a woman's perspective, but I do have some idea of what you mean. Teenage boys can be similarly vulnerable to predatory men - not yet having gained the strength a complete male puberty usually provides - and I was approached and followed by strangers in the streets. I also have many women in my life - DM, DW, DD, aunts, nieces, cousins, friends - whose safety concerns me.

One of the reasons that men are more often the victims of male violence is that we are more likely to escalate a potentially violent situation. Women often have little choice but to try to defuse a threatening incident, or to get to a place of safety. Many men have another option, to square their shoulders and assert their own physical presence. Like rutting stags, some invite violence so that they have an excuse to return it. But men who are physically weaker or socialised to avoid violent behaviour are a bit more like women in their responses, and have some understanding of them. In old age, nearly all men have to come to terms with the fact that they can no longer get away with the fiction that they are dangerous beasts that shouldn't be messed with.

So I hope (naively?) that the majority of men actually do see something of a woman's perspective when it's pointed out.

Greyskybluesky · 18/02/2025 13:17

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2025 13:13

The petition to "fully repeal" the GRA is approaching 10,000 signatures, at which point the UK govt are obligated to respond. It needs 100,000 to be considered for debate in parliament. It runs until August. (NB: It's not my petition! I'm highlighting it because it's one way of making our voices heard that cannot be ignored.)

The last time this happened when we got a mealy mouthed fob off, it played out exactly the same in that Scotland and Brighton were the darkest areas.

Closely followed by Calder Valley - Hebden Bridge!

NebulousDogBollocking · 18/02/2025 13:20

From Datun's post towards the end of Thread 20:

These men know fuck all about being women, and have no idea why we want to be private when taking our clothes off. The ignorance and entitlement comes off them in waves.

Having been coercively controlled throughout my marriage and seeing so many similarities between that and trans activism and the behaviours of some, I have to say I think they know full well why we want privacy. It's when we need that privacy the most that they take the most pleasure from. They want to see us at our most vulnerable and weakest, then they can feel just that little bit better about theminadequateselves.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 13:23

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/02/2025 13:17

There were some perceptive and interesting posts on page 40 of the previous thread, from Roving PublicEnquiry, thenosiesttermagant and Datun among others, about the instinctive wariness (to put it very mildly) that women experience in woodland at dusk and similar environments.

Apologies again for a man's perspective, but I think this is worth sharing. I accept that I cannot have a woman's perspective, but I do have some idea of what you mean. Teenage boys can be similarly vulnerable to predatory men - not yet having gained the strength a complete male puberty usually provides - and I was approached and followed by strangers in the streets. I also have many women in my life - DM, DW, DD, aunts, nieces, cousins, friends - whose safety concerns me.

One of the reasons that men are more often the victims of male violence is that we are more likely to escalate a potentially violent situation. Women often have little choice but to try to defuse a threatening incident, or to get to a place of safety. Many men have another option, to square their shoulders and assert their own physical presence. Like rutting stags, some invite violence so that they have an excuse to return it. But men who are physically weaker or socialised to avoid violent behaviour are a bit more like women in their responses, and have some understanding of them. In old age, nearly all men have to come to terms with the fact that they can no longer get away with the fiction that they are dangerous beasts that shouldn't be messed with.

So I hope (naively?) that the majority of men actually do see something of a woman's perspective when it's pointed out.

I kinda hoped that too, but my gentle, long-haired, physically pretty weak husband who has been on the receiving end of male verbal aggression that looked like it would escalate to physical…still does not get the visceral risk response women have to men.

Edited to add: I’m sure many lovely men can sympathise and do. But it comes back to this: you are not women, so you cannot know how we feel about this.

RoseisMadder · 18/02/2025 13:23

I’ve been lurking around MN FWR boards for years and just want to say thank you to you all.
I peaked back in 2019 after JKR was accused of transphobia and have been a devout women’s rights supporter ever since. I’ve also lost friends because of my views
MN has saved my sanity so many times over the years and I’m always blown away by how articulate and knowledgeable you all are.
In regards to this ET. I’ve been lurking on Reddit and it is pure insanity how much misinformation is being repeated again and again that SP walked out of a treatment room with a patient due to DU presence (there is no evidence of that only DU statement) So it’s the usual gaslighting and rewrite of facts

Sothatsalrighthen · 18/02/2025 13:24

rebmacesrevda · 18/02/2025 13:05

The petition to "fully repeal" the GRA is approaching 10,000 signatures, at which point the UK govt are obligated to respond. It needs 100,000 to be considered for debate in parliament. It runs until August. (NB: It's not my petition! I'm highlighting it because it's one way of making our voices heard that cannot be ignored.)

On the petition map, Scotland is looking awful red and angry, and I was interested to see which areas of England are too. I was surprised to see Brighton has a fair few signatures, and I was pondering why, as Brighton is well-known for being left-wing/ inclusive/ woke etc. I think I found the reason:
Sarah Summers. I've not seen her name on these threads so far, but I believe she may be lurking on mumsnet; please look up her case on crowdjustice.com.

Another day, another witch-hunt.

‘Brighton born and bred. ‘Scared to wear my cozy Suffragette tartan throw locally. People would be shocked by the infringements on civil liberties Brightonian living centrally endure during Pride. Lots of pulling faces . The attitude is go and stay away for a few days!

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/02/2025 13:34

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 13:23

I kinda hoped that too, but my gentle, long-haired, physically pretty weak husband who has been on the receiving end of male verbal aggression that looked like it would escalate to physical…still does not get the visceral risk response women have to men.

Edited to add: I’m sure many lovely men can sympathise and do. But it comes back to this: you are not women, so you cannot know how we feel about this.

Edited

Maybe he didn't grow up in a very rough area complete with red light district and associated kerb crawlers. As a teenager despite my growing sense of physical strength, I was made very aware of my vulnerability on several occasions. There were some very dangerous men in the neighbourhood, and the red light district attracted more to visit. I still have that sort of feeling occasionally, but as a man I don't usually have to worry about it, particularly in a "nicer" area where I don't particularly expect violence. I get that it is different for women.

RedToothBrush · 18/02/2025 13:43

fromorbit · 18/02/2025 04:57

The head of Unison, the UK's biggest union, Christina McAnea has announced she has the solution for not just the Upton case, but all such disputes. Turns out " It just feels that we're focusing on things that perhaps aren't necessarily a problem." So that is all sorted then. Come over to the Unison thread for more.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271946-unison-womens-conference-motion-trans-women-are-women-as-nurses-battle-nhs-for-single-sex-facilities?page=4

We are in the political era we are due to a refusal to see problems which many are experiencing at ground level. Then there's spin to cover up problems. And there's no accountability for when this is done.

This is what corruption looks like.

This is why corruption of words is also necessary.

If someone is saying as loudly as women are, that's there's a problem, there's a problem.

Listen to the problem. Even if it raises difficult questions.

rebmacesrevda · 18/02/2025 13:44

@Sothatsalrighthen I lived in Kemptown for a couple of years, so I do know what you're talking about. It's been a while since I left, and I wonder what my old colleagues in Brighton are making of all this now. Some of my gay friends hated Pride, and they didn't say why but this has got me thinking. I can only hope the feminist resistance down there is growing; I suspect you have more LGB allies than you know.

Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2025 13:46

Waitwhat23 · 18/02/2025 13:09

Magdalen Berns has been mentioned on this and the previous thread so I thought I'd add an excellent quote from her.

Also 'I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar'.

Special mention to the fool on Twitter who used a gif of Magdalen shouting 'terf!' as an insult to a women he was arguing with, having not actually realised who Magdalen was. It was very funny.

Edited

You've already quoted two of my favourites so as a way of a placemark I shall add my other two favourites

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21
Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2025 13:46

And

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21
DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 13:50

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/02/2025 04:02

Deeply saddened response from Elisabeth Upton in January 2024 https://yourviews.parliament.scot/ehrcj/gender-representation-public-boards-bill/consultation/view_respondent?uuId=610909474

This Bill will update the statute book by removing the definition of "woman" from section 2 of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018. This change is in line with the Court of Session ruling. Do you have any views on this proposal?

"I am a supporter of the original bill as I believe it is very important to improve representation and encourage equality for women. I was pleased to see an explicitly trans-inclusive definition used in the original bill and was deeply saddened when this definition was ruled to be out with the competence of the Scottish parliament. I worry about the impact on the wider movement for trans equality that the court ruling could have if it is misrepresented by those who seek to demonise and harm the trans community. I hope that in the future it will be possible for that inclusive definition to be reinstated, especially as the court ruling didn't state the definition was wrong, simply that it was out with Scottish government's competence to make that definition. Ultimately I am supportive of this bill as it removes the text already deemed out with the scope of the devolved government and will allow legislation to pass that will hopefully improve the lives of all women. I was additionally given hope by the Scottish government restating its commitment to achieving greater equality."

he is some chancer

Mmmnotsure · 18/02/2025 13:56

If that's the same Upton he spends a lot of his time being awfully sad.

Other men don't understand anything at all, it seems. Or say they don't:

From TwiX
Jonathan Brown Feb 11th
The relevance of the comparator is that it is how you would test whether refusal to let Dr Upton use the female changing room was discriminatory. The proper comparator is a male without the PC of GR, who would also be refused permission to use the female changing room.

R MW Feb 12th
No. A male without the PC of GR would have no desire to use the female changing room, so that comparator would not be in the same circumstances but for the PC. It's a common misconception.

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 13:57

RedToothBrush · 18/02/2025 13:43

We are in the political era we are due to a refusal to see problems which many are experiencing at ground level. Then there's spin to cover up problems. And there's no accountability for when this is done.

This is what corruption looks like.

This is why corruption of words is also necessary.

If someone is saying as loudly as women are, that's there's a problem, there's a problem.

Listen to the problem. Even if it raises difficult questions.

I'm cautious of conflating US and UK politics, but it's difficult to distinguish between Musk's 'DOGE' and these special interest groups who have been allowed into UK organisations to write policy that contradicts the law.

Also RFK jr is clearly making claims that are unscientific nonsense, but it's no less ridiculous to argue that sex is a nebulous concept.

You can see why people have thought its 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 14:00

Mmmnotsure · 18/02/2025 13:56

If that's the same Upton he spends a lot of his time being awfully sad.

Other men don't understand anything at all, it seems. Or say they don't:

From TwiX
Jonathan Brown Feb 11th
The relevance of the comparator is that it is how you would test whether refusal to let Dr Upton use the female changing room was discriminatory. The proper comparator is a male without the PC of GR, who would also be refused permission to use the female changing room.

R MW Feb 12th
No. A male without the PC of GR would have no desire to use the female changing room, so that comparator would not be in the same circumstances but for the PC. It's a common misconception.

"A male without the PC of GR would have no desire to use the female changing room"

Bless.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/02/2025 14:04

Is that the R MW I suspect it is?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 14:07

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic

I guess what I’m trying to say is something I’ve tried to say upthread: no matter how much we can all empathise with each other, we cannot know how another person feels. The example I gave before was me asking triplets what it felt like to be triplets, and them replying disdainfully that they’d never been anything else so how would they know.

I can imagine how horrible the situation in your youth was - and it sounds horrible - and I can imagine how I might feel in a similar situation, but I cannot feel how you felt, because I am not you.

Likewise, men (or women) cannot feel how women (or men) feel because we can only feel what we have ourselves experienced.

The sympathy is welcome though, please don’t think it isn’t.

Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2025 14:07

@NoBinturongsHereMate Assuming it is, of course that person would say that as that person is in DUs position, And is currently using female spaces without a GRC. That person has no desire for the comparator to be a male person!

Mmmnotsure · 18/02/2025 14:09

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/02/2025 14:04

Is that the R MW I suspect it is?

Yes. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.
(And I should have said, it was my bolding.)

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 14:09

@Mmmnotsure , we really need an eyeroll reaction for clangers like this:

R MW Feb 12th
No. A male without the PC of GR would have no desire to use the female changing room, so that comparator would not be in the same circumstances but for the PC. It's a common misconception.

RethinkingLife · 18/02/2025 14:11

Upton's perception of self is like the dualism of Rosa Parks. The common public perception of Rosa Parks is that she's a woman who just got fed up going to the back of the bus and made a stand on that day, sparking the bus boycott.

In reality, Rosa Parks was a very astute political mind with an outstanding record as a community activist. (Excellent Theoharis book, I recommend it. I've not seen the film.)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dollychugh/2019/02/04/the-truth-about-rosa-parks-and-why-it-matters-to-your-diversity-initiative/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rebellious-Life-Mrs-Rosa-Parks/dp/0807076929/

I see the self-presented, waif presentation of Upton. I also see Upton's self-assessment as a political operator. The response to the consultation is Jan 2024 or around about the time when Upton was still 'traumatised' from the Christmas Eve 2023 CR incident (if I understand this timeline correctly) and the sequelae.

I think the NHS is motivated to use this tribunal to assert the implementation of mixed gender facilities everywhere. This is absurd, because they'd be excluding anyone with a conservative faith that forbids this. But, as we've seen, the NHS' strategic thinking only extends so far in some areas.

needmoresheep · 18/02/2025 14:14

Let’s just mention NHS Fife led by Carol Potter & The Means Girls who are determined to burn the witch who doesn’t follow their thinking. You are not off the hook and the bad publicity will keep coming.

Hears hoping that Neil Gray can hand out some P45s tomorrow or at least encourage those who can to do so.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/02/2025 14:27

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 14:09

@Mmmnotsure , we really need an eyeroll reaction for clangers like this:

R MW Feb 12th
No. A male without the PC of GR would have no desire to use the female changing room, so that comparator would not be in the same circumstances but for the PC. It's a common misconception.

Such a buffoon. It's a real "calm down dear, no man is going to rape or assault you" trope. Just like some of Upton's smug, tone deaf comments demonstrated - both have a complete lack of insight into the reality of what it is to be a woman.

Lark1ane · 18/02/2025 14:30

Carol Potter & The Means Girls
Harry meets Strike?
A new genre for JKR.

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