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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/02/2025 23:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

OP posts:
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18
Waitwhat23 · 22/02/2025 11:12

Scottish minister, becoming aware of records being wiped, seeing eyebleach photos of that piss protest....

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21
Szygy · 22/02/2025 11:12

BonfireLady · 22/02/2025 11:02

Does anyone have the video of this?

It's got a really menacing soundtrack and voiceover. I remember seeing it once and being completely shocked that something like this could happen and the press was.... silent. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the video and haven't been able to find it since, despite having looked a couple of times. What they did shocking enough in written form but this video takes that to a whole new level, because it's (clearly deliberately) so sinister.

I don’t have the video, I’m afraid - but yes, the whole thing was just….unbelievable. And very disturbing that anyone could ever have imagine it to be any sort of normal response to…..well, anything, frankly.

Slothtoes · 22/02/2025 11:16

KnottyAuty · 22/02/2025 10:31

Sorry for the digression but how is it that trans rights have got this much attention and traction with public institutions?

The trans population is said to be 0.5% of the population and somehow there’s been policy and structural changes (literal building fabric structure/toilets etc) which have been rolled out with vigour and enthusiasm to make them feel welcome.

Meanwhile nothing much is said about the 400,000 English born people who live in Scotland who are “othered” by their English-ness. Including verbal abuse, beatings etc. That’s 7% of the population.

I could go on about other groups like neurodivergent (estimated at up to 20%) and the abuse/neglect etc and their over-representation in the justice system being a function of their needs not being met by health bodies…

I know Stonewall and other groups have been effective but why is no one looking at the numbers and making sensible comparisons?

how is it that trans rights have got this much attention and traction with public institutions?

Because it’s connected to men’s sexual wants. Including men’s sexual wants to have access to other people’s bodies or to other people’s validating attention (women’s or children’s usually).

It’s a men’s sexual rights and men’s sexual access agenda. That’s why transmen are totally sidelined.

And as a society we haven’t stopped prioritising those agendas wherever men are pushing them. This new patriarchy is just a glowed up version of the old patriarchy.

Meanwhile the old straight up patriarchy is having a dangerous resurgence online. I imagine that it’s only the inherent homophobia of the patriarchy in all its forms, that stops these two modern faces of the same patriarchal aims getting together and joining forces.

KnottyAuty · 22/02/2025 11:16

Szygy · 22/02/2025 10:45

Yes, it sounds likely to be as wonderfully successful in PR terms as that 'piss protest' that was held a couple of years ago (outside a newspaper's headquarters? I can’t remember exactly where. But it was a masterclass in how not to win friends and influence people).

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pissed-off-trannies-ehrc-protest/

WTAF?

KnottyAuty · 22/02/2025 11:19

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 22/02/2025 10:50

There has been speculation that it is a welcome distraction from the very real bigotry that we sadly still face in Scotland. Having been the victim of sectarian bullying growing up in a small village in the West of Scotland, it galls me to see women called “bigots” today while orange walks are still going strong.

(Disclaimer: see also
homphobia/racism/sexism/disability discrimination… it’s all there! But that’s my own experience.)

Edited

Quite!
The weird schism between the warm and welcoming Scot - and the rampant xenophobia. I always find it bewildering

Seriestwo · 22/02/2025 11:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

nauticant · 22/02/2025 11:24

Witnesses so far:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Mr Peggie
Nicole Peggie

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

OP posts:
ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 22/02/2025 11:26

Thanks @nauticant !

Sterling work - most grateful to you for facilitating these threads. Sunlight indeed!

CriticalCondition · 22/02/2025 11:38

I

I can't find the video of the original 2022 'piss in' either. But my search did bring up another one in May 2023. I didn't know the EHRC had been targeted again. Grim.

AlexaAdventuress · 22/02/2025 11:41

Whilst procrastinating and putting off starting work, I've just reminded myself of the UK census data on this topic. 0.1% of respondents reported that they were a trans woman and 0.1% said they were a trans man. So around one in a thousand. The proportions are a little lower than that because not everyone answered that question. A larger proportion reported that their gender identity was different from the sex they were registered at birth (0.24%) but didn't specify an identity. There's been a good deal of discussion as to whether people understood the question in the same way that the authors of the census questionnaire intended, for example https://doi.org/10.1177/00380385241240441 So this is a very vocal and influential minority despite its miniscule size. As a friend of mine wisely says 'It's because they're blokes, innit?'

mrshoho · 22/02/2025 11:44

Cismyfatarse · 22/02/2025 10:04

Will the news that EHRC have stepped in send alarm bells ringing to the very many institutions and companies who are currently committing the same breaches as NHS Fife? There are so many incidences from schools through to law firms who are not following these laws. And the main trade unions appear to be acting completely at odds to what the EHRC dictates.

Chersfrozenface · 22/02/2025 11:50

0.1% of respondents reported that they were a trans woman and 0.1% said they were a trans man.

With the caveat that some people may have reported that they were women when they were in fact men and vice versa. And deliberately ignored the gender identity different from the sex registered at birth question.

Bunpea · 22/02/2025 11:56

RethinkingLife · 22/02/2025 10:39

Took advice from a then 26yo EDI 'lead' with no prior qualifications or experience in EDI

IB has a Masters in Global Health and Management with modules in equality and human rights, iirc. Which is why she is co-chair of relevant committees and Fife’s Lead for Equality and Human Rights, if I remember the relevant minutes correctly. I have no idea if the Masters dissertation was practical or a review piece.

Edited

Looking at this course on Aberdeen uni website:

  • one year master’s course
  • EDI as one of 4 topics covered in the HR management course, which is worth 15 credit points. So EDI could reasonably be worth 3 to 4 credit points.
  • The whole Masters is worth 224 credit points (if I’ve totted it up correctly).
  • So the EDI topic is vanishingly small.
  • There’s also a big emphasis throughout on the international nature of the course. So highly unlikely to be any focus on UK legislation.

There is no way this equipped IB to be the ‘subject matter expert’ and ‘expert lead’ which NHS Fife’s Job Purpose description said they needed. They recruited someone unqualified for the role.

BonfireLady · 22/02/2025 12:01

I've now finally caught up. I wanted to read all the posts because there have been so many fantastic, knowledgeable and thought-provoking contributions. This case really does bring so many aspects of the enforced belief in gender identity into one place. It's an Isla Bryson moment for the world, as described brilliantly in the Women Won't Wheesht X post.

I'd like to share my own experience of a conversation this week about it all. The part between the hypened lines includes the death of a child so that people can choose to skip it if preferred. I'm still processing that bit myself 😢

I caught up with someone I used to work closely with earlier this week. The work was intensive so we spent a lot of time unpicking it, which led to some conversations not always being just about work, despite us both being in different countries. I don't generally say much personal stuff in work but had talked to him about my daughter's situation when she was gender questioning (and going through her mental health crisis) and we spoke a little about gender identity belief in general.

Having not spoken to him in AGES, I was impressed that he still had an active interest in the subject of gender identity. He shared that his (newish) girlfriend had struggled with her body changing when she grew up and that he was pretty shocked at himself for agreeing with Trump on gender identity stuff. I said "me too!". Understandably, he hadn't come across the Peggie case as most of the international news on this stuff is Trump-focused in his country.

I started to tell him about it. When I got to the part about her menstrual flooding (I shared with him that I previously had no idea this was a "thing" in peri-menopause), he said "Can I interrupt you a moment? If you walked into a changing room and the only other person in there was a woman experiencing this, what would you do?" I replied that "I hadn't really thought about that but I would ask if she preferred to be given some privacy and, depending on how flustered she may or may not be, I might ask her if she needs any help with anything" I was thinking about new scrubs at the time but realise now that these are probably already available in the room.

In other words, I wouldn't be thinking about myself or that it was a moment to assert my (declared...) belief about myself. I then took the conversation onto this point, which is key to all of it: the impact of enforced belief.

I talked about the potential danger of a doctor who believes that sex is a "nebulous concept" (as outlined in the FWS Problem with Pete article) and a different example: what about a hypothetical doctor who was a Jehovah's Witness and who told patients in need of a blood transfusion that it was wrong for them to accept this treatment? Hopefully that couldn't happen but we've already seen that Dr U would tell a patient who wanted same-sex care that "I am a biological female". We've already seen that the NHS doesn't have a way of stopping doctors enforcing their belief on others.

----------

At this point he shared a recent experience of one of his friends, who is a surgeon where the patient in question was a child who needed an operation to save his life. The parents consulted a priest for guidance. They were Orthodox Christians and the priest advised that the child should not have the surgery....(a quick Google suggests that could be the belief that "the natural dying process should not be prolonged")... so the parents followed this advice. The part that I can't stop thinking about is that the surgeon/friend took a very long time to stop actively thinking about the child directly pleading with him that "I don't want to die" 😢😢😢😢 I have no idea if the child knew what the surgeon's advice was and/or why his parents didn't follow it. Frankly, that's too distressing to contemplate. But it does massively highlight the issue here: the impact of enforced belief is most keenly felt by those who are the most vulnerable. For as much as I can bring myself to contemplate it, on the assumption that this child was also a believer in this faith it demonstrates what that looks like for an individual - this child would have believed in this faith (and possibly/logically that dying was the only viable option, despite not wanting it) because the trusted adults in his life told him it was true. And that it was important. Most young children believe that what their parents tell them is true.

I don't directly challenge anyone's beliefs (I've mentioned previously that I accept that many people believe a virgin can give birth).
But FFS. This demonstrates just what kind of an impact personal beliefs can have, whether earnestly held (as by the parents in the case above) or simply declared to be held. I'm feeling both angry and tearful writing this. Angry that so many thousands of children are still being harmed worldwide by health institutions that are providing unevidenced "care", despite the findings and recommendations of the Cass Report. Tearful about this one child, under completely different circumstances 😢

----------
Focusing specifically on the impact of someone's belief, one thing is abundantly clear: beliefs can lead people to make decisions that can objectively lead to bad health outcomes, including death.

If any doctor says/believes that sex is a nebulous concept, how does anyone know how far they will go to uphold that belief in their medical practice? Commentary has been made on Dr U's monologue earlier on, including the assertion that fulfilling a request from a woman for same-sex care is fine because "I'm biologically female". A couple of interesting points float up to the top at a generic medical practice level (note to MNHQ that I am not saying that either of these points relate to Dr U):

  1. there is the question of "how do we spot the potential for dupers' delight?"
  2. how would we knew where any doctor who believed that it's possible for a male to be a "biological female" would take this in clinical terms? For example, would they support the Edinburgh trans health manifesto?

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

For me, the true meaning of an "Isla Bryson moment" is when someone suddenly realises the safeguarding impact of someone's belief being enforced. Unfortunately safeguarding really is a "nebulous concept" to so many people, in that it's everything and nothing all at the same time. Even to the point where many people might not even recognise that their lightbulb moment related to it, they might just be aware of an innate feeling that it's uncomfortable and not right.
IMO that's one of the reasons why it's often so difficult to get safeguarding woven through the core of policies and laws, despite all the changes that come off the back of the various different safeguarding scandals that we've seen over the years.

DeanElderberry · 22/02/2025 12:01

Lovely piss protest, presumably left to be cleaned up by low-paid workers. The righteous are so benevolent in their gracious re-education of the masses.

Needspaceforlego · 22/02/2025 12:01

Datun · 22/02/2025 09:19

And in Terms of transwomen forming a corridor to clap Beth back into court, the optics of a bunch of men back slapping another man's determination to access undressing women, will not make quite the point they think it will.

Wtf

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 22/02/2025 12:05

RethinkingLife · 22/02/2025 10:39

Took advice from a then 26yo EDI 'lead' with no prior qualifications or experience in EDI

IB has a Masters in Global Health and Management with modules in equality and human rights, iirc. Which is why she is co-chair of relevant committees and Fife’s Lead for Equality and Human Rights, if I remember the relevant minutes correctly. I have no idea if the Masters dissertation was practical or a review piece.

Edited

For reasons that would be massively outing, I happen to know what that course includes, and, in short, she was in no way qualified or experienced to do the job shes' currently in, maybe a more junior equality entry role, but not this one.

DeanElderberry · 22/02/2025 12:11

I'd seen pictures of that protest before including the one of the protester with the bottle held high to facilitate pouring, but never before noticed that something was disrupting the way HIS dress was hanging.

That pesky euphoria.

when the rest of you are finished with the mind bleach . . . .

Needspaceforlego · 22/02/2025 12:12

Conxis · 22/02/2025 10:50

At the start of this hearing I expected to hear a story about a TW and a nurse failed by their employer. Obviously DU isn’t the vulnerable individual I was expecting (just how far did that narrative pendulum swing?!?) but I do still think they were both failed by NHS Fife.

@KnottyAuty I think Sandie's Team played an absolutely blinder in making Dr Upton a respondent along with NHS Fife!
As well as a way of warning to other trans women of action that can be taken against them personally, I reckon Sandie had a fair idea how he would come across under questioning!

Totally agree.
Sandie Peggie deserves so much respect for what she has done.

BonfireLady · 22/02/2025 12:21

CriticalCondition · 22/02/2025 11:38

I

I can't find the video of the original 2022 'piss in' either. But my search did bring up another one in May 2023. I didn't know the EHRC had been targeted again. Grim.

That wasn't the video I was thinking of but it's still a good one to post. Thank you! And actually, it was the 2023 one I was thinking of, I hadn't registered that there had been two.

From memory, it was this video spliced with some graffiti style artwork and using a few funky zoom shots to transition between the art and the video. Plus the soundtrack of someone talking in a menacingly low voice and some weird heavy music thrown in.

However, the plain old video is unnerving enough.

Needspaceforlego · 22/02/2025 12:28

I've seen many references to Pete the Plumber, who / what is Pete the Plumber?

nauticant · 22/02/2025 12:30

Hypothetical Pete: x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1888916782573830638

OP posts:
Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 22/02/2025 12:30

Needspaceforlego · 22/02/2025 12:28

I've seen many references to Pete the Plumber, who / what is Pete the Plumber?

Pete the Plumber was brought up as an imaginary example by NC.

forwomen.scot/12/02/2025/the-problem-with-pete/

NebulousDog · 22/02/2025 12:31

Needspaceforlego · 22/02/2025 12:28

I've seen many references to Pete the Plumber, who / what is Pete the Plumber?

Pete the plumber was NC's imaginary hospital worker; able to change clothing (and gender) at her will.

He featured regularly in her cross examination of Dr U.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/02/2025 12:37

@BonfireLady

For me, the true meaning of an "Isla Bryson moment" is when someone suddenly realises the safeguarding impact of someone's belief being enforced.

Someone somewhere said that this ideology breaks everything it touches, and that that is actually the point (see all the navel-gazing academics - obs not-all-academics - who want to “queer” everything, where “queer” in this instance specifically means break).

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