NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

A new thread for everyone to continue the discussion.

As ever, a request:

We've seen what a nightmare this has been for Sandie, and what a gruelling and uncertain experience it is to go through an Employment Tribunal. It would be even harder going through it and worrying about how to fund it.

Other women are going through similar experiences and need our support, so at least they're able to focus on the important parts and not worry all the time about funding. One woman going through this is Sarah Holman who is crowdfunding under Harassed and Victimised for supporting Women’s Rights. It's possible she's unaware of the support offered by Mumsnet and it would be great if she could receive some.

For anyone following Tribunal Tweets, this is their list of the abbreviations used:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R1/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

It's incredible that there should be 21 threads on this matter. But it feels important, and to me, also necessary to follow the story and to give support to women experiencing this current wave of doublethink and newspeak, hounding and oppression.

I have to step away from time to time though, because it becomes overwhelming. I can only imagine how Sandie Peggie must feel.

Thank you very much to @nauticant and all the other contributors.

Thank you @nauticant and all contributors.
And thank you Mumsnet for allowing us to discuss this and other important issues on FWR

Deeply saddened response from Elisabeth Upton in January 2024 https://yourviews.parliament.scot/ehrcj/gender-representation-public-boards-bill/consultation/view_respondent?uuId=610909474

This Bill will update the statute book by removing the definition of "woman" from section 2 of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018. This change is in line with the Court of Session ruling. Do you have any views on this proposal?

"I am a supporter of the original bill as I believe it is very important to improve representation and encourage equality for women. I was pleased to see an explicitly trans-inclusive definition used in the original bill and was deeply saddened when this definition was ruled to be out with the competence of the Scottish parliament. I worry about the impact on the wider movement for trans equality that the court ruling could have if it is misrepresented by those who seek to demonise and harm the trans community. I hope that in the future it will be possible for that inclusive definition to be reinstated, especially as the court ruling didn't state the definition was wrong, simply that it was out with Scottish government's competence to make that definition. Ultimately I am supportive of this bill as it removes the text already deemed out with the scope of the devolved government and will allow legislation to pass that will hopefully improve the lives of all women. I was additionally given hope by the Scottish government restating its commitment to achieving greater equality."

The head of Unison, the UK's biggest union, Christina McAnea has announced she has the solution for not just the Upton case, but all such disputes. Turns out " It just feels that we're focusing on things that perhaps aren't necessarily a problem." So that is all sorted then. Come over to the Unison thread for more.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271946-unison-womens-conference-motion-trans-women-are-women-as-nurses-battle-nhs-for-single-sex-facilities?page=4

@nauticant Someone saying they are Sarah has found mumsnet. We had someone making false claims to be Almut Gadow once so while I have no reason to believe this is not Sarah it's just a reminder that it can happen.

who is Sarah?

Suzanne Moore's article in the Telegraph asking why any woman would work for the NHS after all this? Over 1,000 comments at the time of posting. There are a number of comments pointing out the wider implications of all this - thought this from a Tim Sharkey was spot on about what's being done to women by the NHS:

"... BUT fundamentally - this is about truth. Any issues regarding safety, harm, privacy and who may be most affected are secondary order issues. The primary issue is this is not in accordance with reality and is a rejection of reality. 2+2=5. To saddle you and break your spirit like a horse. Truly there appears to be a war for the mind."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/17/woman-work-nhs-nurse-experience/

https://archive.ph/Tp9a3

Bannedontherun:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5207542-new-crowdfunder

@Sartay's posting from a few months back matches up@anyolddinosaur.

Thank you for the new thread. Bloody hell I'm scunnered after finally catching up and getting to thread 20. If I'm scunnered then I feel for Sandie, god knows what she's feeling like.

Thanks again @nauticant for all your hard work pulling these together for us.x

Tim Sharkey is right.

Even if you leave aside sex, Dr Upton's own defence team and supporting witnesses have invariably confirmed their relationship to him is defined by gender and they perceive him to be male.

Yes - I think it explains how so many women feel at the moment - gaslit, coercively controlled and emotionally abused by the abusive succession of lies told by people / organisations that are meant to be supportive of women - tragically including too many women's organisations.

We know that we're right about facts and right about the need to safeguard children from this dangerous to the young ideology.
Which is why of course, we persist.

Another one here who thinks Tim Sharkey is right. We can argue, correctly, that this is a misogynistic ideology that harms women. But ultimately it's about spreading a lie that men are women, just as it would be if the hospital was saying that cancer is caused by an imbalance in the humours or infectious diseases were being spread by the miasma.

This is the headline front cover page on today's Scottish Daily Mail. I saw it in the newsagents - sadly the online version is beyond a pay wall. But you will get the gist https://www.mailplus.co.uk/newspaper-scotland

Just love all these labour politicians pretending this only happens in Scotland.

Thank you for this thread. 40 winks and should have guessed we'd be on the next one.

I am no way as knowledgeable as the majority on here but I have been following and trying to do my bits on.tje outskirts for some years.

For those new to this nonsense, some really quick easy ways to get insight for me when I started with WTF? moments were
https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

And JCJ's interview with Graham Linehan which is on YouTube. I don't agree with everything about her by a long shot but I found her explanation of why it's not just like gay rights really clear.

Also on YouTube, Magdalen Berns Short but illuminating videos.

Sorry I anyone thinks I'm derailing but I'm aware there are new eyes on this madness.

.

The petition to "fully repeal" the GRA is approaching 10,000 signatures, at which point the UK govt are obligated to respond. It needs 100,000 to be considered for debate in parliament. It runs until August. (NB: It's not my petition! I'm highlighting it because it's one way of making our voices heard that cannot be ignored.)

On the petition map, Scotland is looking awful red and angry, and I was interested to see which areas of England are too. I was surprised to see Brighton has a fair few signatures, and I was pondering why, as Brighton is well-known for being left-wing/ inclusive/ woke etc. I think I found the reason:
Sarah Summers. I've not seen her name on these threads so far, but I believe she may be lurking on mumsnet; please look up her case on crowdjustice.com.

Another day, another witch-hunt.

19kgofchocolate · Today 12:33

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 20:44
£36,000 ❤
Whilst this is great support, and I myself donated to it. SP subsequently came out and said she was donating it all to charity.
if I were donating now with that knowledge, I’d probably donate it to one of the other women fighting similar cases, as they need it for their legal fees. SPs fees are being paid by an anonymous backer (with deep deep pockets

Copied and pasted from the previous thread.
Do we know she is being backed? I'd like to think she is because the case could be brilliant for all women.

I'd like to think if she is then the money goes to another women's charity ie the ones who have supported her.

Magdalen Berns has been mentioned on this and the previous thread so I thought I'd add an excellent quote from her.

Also 'I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar'.

Special mention to the fool on Twitter who used a gif of Magdalen shouting 'terf!' as an insult to a women he was arguing with, having not actually realised who Magdalen was. It was very funny.

Forgot to add image!

These people really are idiots.

The petition to "fully repeal" the GRA is approaching 10,000 signatures, at which point the UK govt are obligated to respond. It needs 100,000 to be considered for debate in parliament. It runs until August. (NB: It's not my petition! I'm highlighting it because it's one way of making our voices heard that cannot be ignored.)

The last time this happened when we got a mealy mouthed fob off, it played out exactly the same in that Scotland and Brighton were the darkest areas.