NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

"Thank you" for encouraging me to take a closer look 🙃

Personally, I didn't see evidence of (the much used phrase) "gender euphoria" but I think it's fair to say that it's a clear example of the tenet of gender identity belief where it's apparently important to remember that genitals are apparently irrelevant to "gender".

For anyone who "wants" a breakdown of gender euphoria used in context, I reckon you can't beat Mary Cate Delvey. Her pinned tweet has a collection of her threads. I've only scanned the top few but number 6 pretty much covers it. I should think 3 and 4 do too.

https://x.com/marycatedelvey?t=EFQJ6zxLdDKe9TNNEc6eiw&s=09

Please could I borrow the eye bleach after you've finished with it BTW?

A larger proportion reported that their gender identity was different from the sex they were registered at birth (0.24%) but didn't specify an identity.

Well, gender identity and sex ARE different. One is property of the mind, the other a property of the body. Maybe the census didn't account for the pedants amongst us, as well as the mis-readers and those with English as second language?

How many people in the UK with English as a first language could give a good definition of "gender identity"?

Going back to IB's masters. There is of course quite a gap between the EDI of academic writing and the reality of implementing it in practice.

Especially in an arena such as healthcare where there are vulnerable people with a range of protected characteristics and personal preferences. Add in the real complexity a large employer has in managing staff and EDI is a complicated subject. Not a role for a new graduate who thinks everyone just needs to be a bit kinder, unless they are women of a certain age of course.

Didn't Upton apologise for 'misgendering' Pete and NC pointed out he was an entirely ficticious person she had conceived using her imagination?

Personally, I stick with this one, from the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance (page 7):

"Gender identity: is a contested belief. It is a sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male, female or another category such as non-binary. This may or may not be the same as their biological sex. Many people do not consider that they or others have a gender identity at all."

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

I don't bother with the first sentence because all beliefs are contested.

But to your point, I agree: most people are likely to struggle, given it inevitably goes round in a circle on itself. But then lots of beliefs do. I bet a Christian would struggle to define god in tangible terms too.

I think "nebulous" is very much the right term here.

I'm struck by the apparent complete disengagement of legal departments from EDI, across all sectors.

It's only now that all seems to be unravelling, but I think Michael Foran has been pointing out the discrepancies between law and policy for years - I think he submitted advice to the Scottish Parliament?

Also, Scotland is particularly bad, but this isn't a Scotland specific problem.

There is of course quite a gap between the EDI of academic writing and the reality of implementing it in practice.

This sounds very likely, even though I'm not in this field. It's the same with any job for a relatively new, and likely enthusiastic, graduate.

I share PPs' comments that she'll be thrown to the wolves here.

I mentioned (on thread 20 I think) the potential for a scenario which could include overwhelm because of the scale of this case and public discussion. Specifically I mentioned Dr David Kelly. Obviously the parallels aren't direct but as much as I want justice and law free of belief-led loopholes, I don't want that. I've got no idea how she can be protected if she can't talk or read about the case until she's completed her cross examination in court. If she's stuck to that, she's in for a hell of a "bam" moment.

If NHS Fife is going to double down and defend itself, it will need to pin this on IB for not escalating and for making decisions that were above her mandate (even though the minutes from the board meeting document the fact that nobody was telling her not to). They won't be drawing attention to her lack of experience, as that will reflect on them. Instead, they'll likely find/retcon examples of her not performing her role "correctly".

Will there be a new thread opened soon?

I think the intervention of the EHRC is a key moment here. Well I certainly hope so, and that it will make all institutions covered by its guidance take note and action. NB.

Indeed. None of this is fair to (most of) the individuals involved, really. Systemic failures. I do hope she is ok. Particularly given the risk of online pile-ons, etc.

🤢

I'd not noticed before you mentioned.

I had noticed all the other tells of a male bodied individual.

Gosh they've got the art of being a woman really cracked haven't they! 🤢🤮

Sounds more like how to talk to a person struggling with reality, trying to talk them away from the edge of the roof.

Indeed. I hadn't thought about it like that but in one short paragraph, it cuts through to exactly this. It sets the tone well for the rest of the document which explains how schools can handle/support a child who is experiencing this, albeit without much that helps on a practical basis e.g. it doesn't adequately link to the Cass Report in a way that tells schools how to achieve watchful waiting (even/especially when parents already support their child's social transition, without necessarily clearly understanding the risks).

In defence of Christians and their beliefs, unless you're a Branch Davidian (Waco) or a member of the People's Temple (Jonestown) or similar, you're probably not in this category.

Edited for typo.

For you...

I think the intervention of the EHRC is a key moment here.

Agreed.

Even when there might be separate threads on a particular point, it feels important that there is a continuation of the narrative too. I'm imagining someone looking back on this time in future college/uni lessons about what happened in this mess - threads like this one will be a key contemporaneous note account of how it all unfolded.

Even Aston university might stop tracking individual posters' information (I think this has already stopped TBF) and pivot instead to using a jigsaw approach to pull key historical events together as a map.

Edited to add: I think the Aston Uni issue has now stopped and has presumably been dealt with. I remember seeing a thread from MNHQ (I think) which closed this off.

When faced with a lack of knowledge in this area it's really useful to be able to fall back on a group with really deep knowledge ... like ... Stonewall

(Just don't expect them to back you up when it all goes wrong)

Perfect 😂

Although it's a bit early, I've just nicked the lot. Thank you. <hic>

Are you suggesting pouring urine about the place is give her a stiffy?

Chores completed (and rest of the family out) I've found my favourite Pete bit (Tues 11th part one):

NC Go back to Pete, who we know is male. Are you saying to understand his GI too?
DU Is he TW or c!s man? He may be taking hormones that wld affect reference range
DU Cld argue not his GI, but hormones wld affect.
NC Did u just misgender Pete?
DU U told me he was a TM, so if I did I apologise
NC Describing Pete, who is my invention, what y'd call as c!s man, a big manly man
DU Do I need to know his GI? Not if matches his sex
NC But u need to know his sex as bld ranges differ by sex

D'oh. Meant to say "necked".

Perhaps not intentionally but employers appoint people who resemble Orwell’s description of “horrible children” in 1984. Young enough to have been indoctrinated and to appreciate the full wretchedness of cancel culture re: gender identity yet somehow oblivious to the potentially career-ending consequences for others of their knowledge gaps re: law and other necessary expertise.

I think we need Hypothetical Pete to come and plumb in supplies of both Mind Bleach and Eye Bleach. Where are we, BTW? Is it the back room at the Bluestocking? Or possibly (all hail JKR) King's Cross?

@nauticant @Vegemiteandhoneyontoast
@NebulousDog

Thank you all for explaining Pete, I wasn't able to keep up with the faster moving threads so missed bits.

But very much my own conclusions, no women can tell the difference between a man with body dysmorphia believing they are in the wrong body and a man who's using a Gender Identity to access vulnerable women.

How can anybody actually tell the difference?