NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

I am not aware of any published list of witnesses. We know who some of the witnesses are because they've been mentioned - SP, for example - but there may be others we don't know about.

Our end of term is July 18th. The continuation date discussed at the ET was 21-30th July. I usually visit Angus relatives in the summer so I’ve opted for week beginning 28th July this year - complete coincidence you understand - and might pop along for the summing up… I’ll be the one outside doing a lonely slow hand clap if anyone cares to join me 🤣

Sorry, I meant KS in my example! SP has, of course, already given evidence so we won't hear any more from her unless she is recalled.

Its clear that management including senior management took advice from a then 26yo EDI 'lead' with no prior qualifications or experience in EDI, instead of forming their own opinions on the matter, speaking to HR or speaking to legal!

IB will definitely be thrown under the bus for this but whomever recruited her needs to be pulled up too. What I also find hilarious is that EHRC communications in the past would probably go to her! If she's not already on the sick, she'll be off sick by the time of the next tribunal dates.

Gah just realised I’ve got to take DS to an autism even at the end of that week. So if I pop along it will be week beginning 21st to watch the evidence (if it’s not online again)

It's interesting though that, based on her own evidence at least, it sounds like ED was either surprised or unconvinced by the advice she was given by IB, hence going to also look it up on the system and asking at least one other person. So although she did go along with it, my guess is she did find it a bit concerning, at least initially. Which to me makes it clear that the blame falls with NHS Fife, who had the responsibility to provide single sex changing rooms and, as part of that, ensure all staff understood how that provision was to be made.

Watchdog tells NHS Fife to provide single-sex changing rooms

www.thetimes.com/article/7caaf0b2-7838-48f5-816c-6139a449193b?shareToken=33cf3854c6072ba5805fcae0157e9ac4

Gosh, I’d forgotten about that - sometimes derided behind their backs by the gay men they kept company with.

100% agree

At the start of this hearing I expected to hear a story about a TW and a nurse failed by their employer. Obviously DU isn’t the vulnerable individual I was expecting (just how far did that narrative pendulum swing?!?) but I do still think they were both failed by NHS Fife.

Absolute chaos by the sound of it - junior staff left to flail around. The fragmentation leading to duplication of effort and potential for misinformation is astounding. The relevant laws are UK laws - all that was needed was one policy, approved by experts in the field (law AND HR) at UK level which was then cascaded out throughout the NHS (arguably, the entire public sector!)

So frustrating.

Sorry for the digression but how is it that trans rights have got this much attention and traction with public institutions?

The trans population is said to be 0.5% of the population and somehow there’s been policy and structural changes (literal building fabric structure/toilets etc) which have been rolled out with vigour and enthusiasm to make them feel welcome.

Meanwhile nothing much is said about the 400,000 English born people who live in Scotland who are “othered” by their English-ness. Including verbal abuse, beatings etc. That’s 7% of the population.

I could go on about other groups like neurodivergent (estimated at up to 20%) and the abuse/neglect etc and their over-representation in the justice system being a function of their needs not being met by health bodies…

I know Stonewall and other groups have been effective but why is no one looking at the numbers and making sensible comparisons?

Actually - sound of penny dropping - I can see exactly how this has happened. I’ve got a client where the CEO post was filled with an ex NHS Board type. There’s zero proper decision making and a lot of double speak to avoid any responsibility. Causing chaos in the organisation. I’d assumed it was just that individual but apparently it’s an NHS thing. Gawd help us all

@KnottyAuty
I think loudly crying "transphobia" whenever they don't get what they want has got something to do with it. Spreading the oppressed minority narrative has rendered everyone terrified to say no to them. The other groups you mentioned hardly ever kick up a fuss over injustices towards them. As a ND person, I'm too busy trying to hold down a job and keep on top of my life to worry about people committing "hate crimes" against me!

Yep. Every NHS Trust up and down the UK has to presumably have discussions about all these policy issues. So much duplication of effort and expensive bureaucracy when the whole thing should be led and cascaded by the NHS .... and/or government.

Took advice from a then 26yo EDI 'lead' with no prior qualifications or experience in EDI

IB has a Masters in Global Health and Management with modules in equality and human rights, iirc. Which is why she is co-chair of relevant committees and Fife’s Lead for Equality and Human Rights, if I remember the relevant minutes correctly. I have no idea if the Masters dissertation was practical or a review piece.

In response to a request upthread, I have started to assemble a list of people involved in the trial. I'm unclear whether they are all being called and I really should have linked back to the TT days/session in which they gave evidence. Please feel free to copy/paste and complete the task:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor

R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
R3 (late request to add R3) KC - Kate Searle, A&E consultant
JR - Jane Russell, barrister for respondents
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents

J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
Panel members sitting with EJ,
P1 - CM Russell
P2 - L Brown

ED - Esther Davidson, SP's line manager (evidence day 10)
LC - Louise Curran, charge nurse
KC - Kate Searle, A&E consultant (may become R3)
MC: Michelle Gilmour
SF: Stuart Fraser, RCN rep
MF: Maya Forstater (Sandie's expert on gender) (evidence
DP: Darren Peggie (Sandie's husband) (evidence
SB: Sheila Bell (Sandie's mum) (evidence
VV: Vic Valentine (Respondents' expert on gender)
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up in SP investigation (the 2nd one)
IB - Isla Bumba, Equality and Diversity Lead NHS Fife
MC - Maggie Currer, consultant
AS - Angie Shepherd, department service manager
LC - Louise Curran, senior charge nurse
LH - Lauren Hart, senior charge nurse
GM - Gillian Malone, head of nursing

We'll probably be on a new thread by the time I get round to completing this; chores to do!

We don’t normally get a list of witnesses. As the case is part heard we know who has given evidence and the names of some of the witnesses but I expect this may change between now and July.

For SP, there was her husband, mum, daughter and Maya Forstater
For Fife Hospital & DU there has been DU and ED only. We expect KS and IB as well as HR.

Yes, it sounds likely to be as wonderfully successful in PR terms as that 'piss protest' that was held a couple of years ago (outside a newspaper's headquarters? I can’t remember exactly where. But it was a masterclass in how not to win friends and influence people).

At the start of this hearing I expected to hear a story about a TW and a nurse failed by their employer. Obviously DU isn’t the vulnerable individual I was expecting (just how far did that narrative pendulum swing?!?) but I do still think they were both failed by NHS Fife.

@KnottyAuty I think Sandie's Team played an absolutely blinder in making Dr Upton a respondent along with NHS Fife!
As well as a way of warning to other trans women of action that can be taken against them personally, I reckon Sandie had a fair idea how he would come across under questioning!

There has been speculation that it is a welcome distraction from the very real bigotry that we sadly still face in Scotland. Having been the victim of sectarian bullying growing up in a small village in the West of Scotland, it galls me to see women called “bigots” today while orange walks are still going strong.

(Disclaimer: see also
homphobia/racism/sexism/disability discrimination… it’s all there! But that’s my own experience.)

That would be the 60 bottles of piss which were left outside the EHRC as part of a protest by 'Pissed off Trannies' in 2022 -

www.vice.com/en/article/pissed-off-trannies-ehrc-protest/

As well as one masked protester in a dress who poured actually bottles of piss over himself as part of the process.... (pictures of which are included in the link above)

Hmmmm, yes, because women are famously adept at pissing in bottles

A Scottish government spokesperson also said it would respond to the letter in due course and added: "The Scottish government expects all relevant organisations to comply with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010.
"As employers, organisations may need to consider the impact of other legislation, such as the requirements of the law on health and safety in workplaces.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78ed8v0g8lo

The government spokesperson seems to think the health and safety regs are optional?

Does anyone have the video of this?

It's got a really menacing soundtrack and voiceover. I remember seeing it once and being completely shocked that something like this could happen and the press was.... silent. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the video and haven't been able to find it since, despite having looked a couple of times. What they did shocking enough in written form but this video takes that to a whole new level, because it's (clearly deliberately) so sinister.