NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Well they'd better write to practically every trust in the country, especially all the ones involved with the Rainbow badge scheme.
If they have a "supporting trans staff" (or whatever they call it) policy it will say trans staff can use the changing room aligned with their gender.

Have the EHRC been asleep? How did they not know about this before?

Sorry if this was already discussed … what is Dr Upton’s medical specialty? We’ve been discussing and noticed that it is not mentioned (that we can find). Does anyone know?

Thanks for posting the article. Agreed it does read as biased by making careful ommissions. Definitely not the full story.

I see the journalist has her work email address listed on social media, might send some feedback.

Sorry for Daily Fail link but changing room policy has not reached the world of yacht clubs!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14422391/Yachtswoman-Tracy-Edwards-sailing-club-trans-member-changing-rooms.html

He's on a rotation getting experience - psychiatry, A&E, can't remember the other one that's been mentioned.

Anaesthetics

Yes rotating around his biology

I remember having surgery, and the surgeon saying ‘the anaesthetist is the most important person in the room - I just cut it out but he keeps you going’.

Any legal people have any idea what happens if EHCR finds NHS Fife have not assessed how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics, not done quality impact assessments, not kept them under regular review and not ensured the rights of different groups are balanced?

Could the health secretary direct NHS Fife to stop wasting money defending the action?

If so where does that leave the fragrant Dr Upton, who's hitched his wagon to NHS Fife?
He surely won't want to stop defending as then he's admitting sexual harassment which is pretty serious for a doctor

There won't be any repercussions for DU. In case there are, he will revert to his other name and become biologically male again. All records of his time as Dr. Beth will be erased by GMC (or whoever is responsible for registrations) and replaced with Theodore.

That's correct as of now isn't it?

Brings to mind -
Professor Stock from Uni Sussex Brighton
womens studies professor defending women only spaces from women-with-penis. She is ok, for fully transitioned trans, not those with penis.

She was bullied & Harrassed out of her job, home & ultimately country as works for Uni in Texas. There was hate graffiti about her on campus.

The University did not protect her from bullying & harassment,
Uni Sussex: no free speech or freedom of expressing ideas. FFS she is a women’s studies professor!!!!

I would cancel that University 100%. Not a safe place for women,

The BBC article has been updated, with a quote from the Baroness.

They have also included an analysis by a Scottish political correspondent

"This is a significant intervention from the UK's equalities regulator, the enforcer of the Equality Act.
The Scottish government has been saying all week that the guidance for groups like health boards is crystal clear; well the EHRC are the ones who wrote that guidance.
The fact they've felt this is a necessary move speaks volumes about how they feel it's being applied on the ground.
The EHRC has taken a position in the wider debate on gender; they intervened in the Supreme Court case about how the Equality Act defines women, arguing that the very law they enforce is unclear and needs to be amended.
Both that case and the Fife tribunal are going to be very closely watched in terms of how equalities laws are applied in future."

Tracy Edwards is up there with Martina and Sharon. She regularly tweets or retweets against men in women's sport and spaces.

Tracy Edwards is up there with Martina and Sharon. She regularly tweets or retweets against men in women's sport and spaces.

On the contrary, there is an elaborate backdoor system set up specifically to ensure that a DBS check cannot reveal that someone has a GRC.

And offensive as that semi-literate 'corridor of support' rant is, perhaps it gives us a way to solve the terminology question. We keep 'woman'; they get 'womam'. Seems appropriate to give them something superficially similar at a quick glance, but lacking (etymological) roots and ultimately meaningless.

The journalist has 'they' as their pronoun so it appears they are captured which would explain the spin of the article.

They have a number of powers. They could be minded to have a Formal Investigation into Fife, for example, but there are a number of avenues possible set out in this link.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/our-work/our-legal-work/our-legal-powers/our-litigation-and-enforcement-policy-2022-2025/our-0

The organisation or person will commit an offence if it:

• fails to comply with a notice or court order
• falsifies anything provided in accordance with a notice or court order
• gives false oral evidence in response to a notice without a reasonable excuse for doing so.

An organisation or person convicted of such an offence will be liable for a ‘level 5’ fine, which means that there is no maximum limit on the amount that it may be fined.

I identify as a transwoman.

Are you going to genital check me? If I say I'm a transwoman I AM a transwoman. How dare you invade me privacy or insult me by suggesting I am just a mere woman!

How can you tell I'm not a transwoman? You bigot.

Hi. My name is Isla. I identify as an expert in the legalities of the Equality Act.

What do you mean I'm not a lawyer. Nor an expert. How very dare you suggest I'm neither. You bigot. If I say I am, then I am. What do you mean I have to show a piece of paper showing I am? You bigot.

More seriously.

This possible intervention by the EHRC square with Unison's official position?

If Fife's position is inaccurate and they are being pulled up on it, where does this leave Unison?

Will they be recieving a letter in the post shortly too?

But surely it's not a difficult concept for even a very sheltered woman to get her head around, that she cannot consent on another woman's behalf? No matter how hip and cool and up for anything she is, that has no bearing on what I or Peggie or any other female person is obliged to consent to.
That's sick.
I thought universities were fairly hot on consent education these days?

Glad I don't manage anyone. Had no cause to look it up before, but the entire policy reads differently to the others (as if written by tra student intern!). Right down to implied requirement to falsify references with no reference to the name you knew them as when they worked with you.

So when we hear that trans people are some of the most discriminated people, it's true. Not negative discrimination, but positive discrimination in that they get more rights than the rest of us - including state sanctioned lying, it would appear.

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

it really is Orwellian.