NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

‘Have had (so far) two gay male neighbour couples (different addresses) “get the hell out of dodge” for duration! (Pride). They were men, but most locals haven’t got money to.

I've had something of a discussion with my BIL on this. He's a doctor but also does some of the running of the hospital he works at.

Yes cost is particularly if it. As well as a certain issue with being unable to staff separate wards for certain specialties, coupled with the infrastructure of the building they are given to work with.

It's a fair argument - but only to a point and tbh I think it's an excuse because he can't be arsed to find a solution. So it becomes less about cost and more about the work involved in trying to find a workable solution.

From his perspective, it's a resistance to change and if it ain't broke, don't fix it approach. Because he doesn't recognise it as a problem in the same way that a vulnerable female patient would. It's that whole discussion about walking alone in the dark that men and women see differently but in a different setting.

I don't think he 'sees' the sheer number of sexual assaults on wards. They aren't in his mindset. It's not a priority.

From my long term and unfortunatel experience, these are coercive bullies mostly and they absolutely do know it. It’s pure domination and gives them a thrill and a charge.

We really need to start making it a priority for the people in charge. Every woman assaulted / flashed at etc in a mixed sex space in a hospital - make the management accountable - demote them.
Mixed sex changing villages i swimming pools etc - voyeurism / flashing? Start sacking the management responsible for installing and failing to manage spaces safely for customers.
Girls harassed in mixed sex toilets in schools - safeguarding fail on the part of leadership - report to Ofsted

Rinse and repeat until the message gets through

Pluvia has recommended this Tanya de Grunwald's podcast (This isn't working) to me. It has 3 episodes on DEI episodes 6-8:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Grunwald makes an interesting distinction between what she terms "good DEI" and "bad DEI" that might be useful to thinking about all 9 PCs and the value of broad DEI rather than hyper-focused on the needs of one group. It's a useful argument about what we should expect of modern workplaces.

She and the interviewee discuss the transformation of specialist support groups (say disability networks, LGBTQ+ networks) and their transition from support from people who write policies that don't always consider the perspective of others (I paraphrase). I thought of IB and her involvement with external stakeholders when it came to drafting and agreeing the policies/documents.

I've watched a number of the podcasts (IYSWIM) and found them very helpful for thinking about intersecting rights and the modern workplace.

The predatory ones would.
Such as the man caught filming women in a Durham public toilet.

Sorry to throw myself in to the thread with demands but… has anything happened since the disciplinary meeting was postponed?

I’m trying to keep on top of it and catch up, but am failing. I have bookmarks here there and everywhere.

Mixed sex changing villages i swimming pools etc - voyeurism / flashing? Start sacking the management responsible for installing and failing to manage spaces safely for customers.

I had been a member of a gym with pool for quite a while when I was the victim of a voyeur there, another member saw him running about naked so there was a witness. I complained immediately at the front desk and was told "The only person there was Mr whoever and he wouldn't do that". When I tried to take my complaint further the only thing I managed to achieve, which I had to fight for, was a refund of the membership I would no longer be using.

The police did come and interview me but I got the distinct impression they were just ticking boxes, whilst smirking. Nothing came of it, despite me chasing it up. This was many years ago, I doubt very much I'd get that far nowadays.

I'm thankfully invisible now, due to my age, but I feel things are getting worse rather than better. The one thing I am hopeful for is that with information more easily available potential victims can be more aware of how to keep themselves safe because I'm not seeing much sign of the perpetrators reframing their thoughts.

And there it is, we still have to carry those keys while hoping it's only the bear.

I know the thread has moved on, but I wanted to just address this response.

Of course, anyone with even a smidge of imagination, or experience, will understand it. I think the difference is how constant it is for women.

Every day things. Just to take public transport for instance. Being pressed up against on the tube, not wanting to make eye contact on the tube, at night making sure the train carriage you get into is full of people, feeling a frisson of fear if everyone gets off except for one man (or a group), being concerned if a man sits next to you on a bus when there are loads of spare seats, etc, etc.

It's constant. Everyone gets out out of the lift except for you and one man. There's not necessarily any fear, it's just your radar will have the smallest ping. Walking on a relatively empty street, footsteps behind you, instantly trying to work out if they're male or female, etc, etc.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread over how often women's radar goes off, we've had loads of threads about that very thing.

and it's encouraging that men try to understand. Of course.

I'm really sorry about your experience. And yes, of course, there are some men who will hone in on women's fear, and exploit it for all it's worth.

I was more pointing out the lack of empathy men in general have for what women experience. Primarily, because it doesn't occur to them.

And Upton is an example of both these things.

No fucking idea about what women go through and why they want privacy, but knowing that they want it is enough for him to want to slap them down.

I'd use it. But only if I was talking to RMW! Maybe women say that a lot to RMW

Sorry, who is RMW? Is he another man woman, or a politician or what?

@MrsOvertonsWindow
Swimming pool changing villages are a mixed blessing, they are certainly safer for boys going Swimming with their Mum.
Boys deemed too old to be in the Ladies but really too young to be alone in the Men's.

And actually lots of Dads probably aren't comfortable letting their 8yo daughters, go into the Ladies alone either. And then them trying to get to the poolside before the girl emerge from the changing room.

You are up to date.

It appears Fife hospital thought the Tribunal would finish on time so issued the letter on Day 2 inviting SP to the disciplinary hearing.

Quite correctly it has been postponed because the ET is ongoing. Fife Hospital have said SP asked for the postponement but that is face saving in their part.

Labour MSPs are all reverse ferreting claiming “they didn’t know” that the GRR would change the EA2010 until the UK gmt intervened.

Several MSPs have tried to ask questions in the Scottish GMT but been told they can’t because it’s a live ET.

Think that’s it.

@twoshoesnewshoes

You posted on the last thread about your workplace, the RDUH in Devon.
This is the link to their Rainbow Badge assessment report, which they heavily redacted. With a score of just 26/163 I think you can reassure yourself that things aren't nearly as bad as they could be!!

It does say on page six that the trust does not currently have a trans inclusion policy aimed at staff (that was a year or two ago so there may be one by now).
They scored 0/5 for that.

If they are still drawing up their policy now might be a good time to try to put the brakes on.

"The Trust does not currently have a trans inclusion policy aimed at staff. The Trust does however have the Draft Trans, Non-binary and Intersex Gender Recognition Patient Support Guidelines. This is a great addition to the Trust policies and will help staff better navigate and understand how to treat and engage with trans and non-binary patients once this policy
is published."

https://www.royaldevon.nhs.uk/media/0blcnhbf/foi-rdf1840-23-diversity-equality-schemes.pdf

RMW is Robin Moira White, a barrister who identifies as female and is definitely not responsible for absolutely appalling bundles. Say the b word 3 times and Robin may appear.

RMW is a Biologically male barrister who claims to be a woman.

Yes - I'm fully aware of the benefits of mixed sex family changing. Sadly we've ended up with solely large changing villages allowing the predators who walk amongst us to insert themselves into spaces where they're unwanted but are able to perve, film and peep to their hearts content - unless there's a strong safeguarding ethos in a place where staff are empowered to challenge and eject the dodgy men.
And I'd bet a lot of money you'll find that women and girls of certain faiths and none will be self excluding from those mixed sex facilities. because their needs and safety is as usual at the bottom of the pile.

Of course, anyone with even a smidge of imagination, or experience, will understand it. I think the difference is how constant it is for women.

Exactly. My DH asked why it had taken me so long to arrive home from something. I said I had walked on the main road. He asked why I had gone that way and not taken the shortcut.

Just hadn't occurred to him why I wouldn't take the dark, unlit, out of the way, nobody around shortcut. 🙄

I was more pointing out the lack of empathy men in general have for what women experience. Primarily, because it doesn't occur to them.

Yes, I see what you mean @Datun.

Ooh, I've got this!

RMW thought we'd all be really impressed when RMW told us all about having a pilot's licence. Because so many women have time to invest in that sort of thing.

He also said he hasn't bothered with voice training to sound more 'female' because having a deep male voice is so helpful in his work.

(Edited to add detail)

ECB misogynistic, playing Afghanistan and now this, Women under attack everywhere.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/18/trans-activists-advising-the-ecb-on-gender-grassroot-cricke/

Yes, I see. RMW is a man, however much money he's spent on cosmetic surgery. I loved Maya Forstater's eye roll at the beginning.

The posts about men seemingly thinking that women are scared of the bloody dark when they're apprehensive of going places made me think of my own (normally very with it and very GC) husband.

For context, we live very rurally and there aren't pavements/street lighting outwith the main areas of village. You need to walk along 60mph roads to get to the next village. Outwith the main streets, houses are far apart from each other.

I was about to take the dog for a walk and he said 'why don't you go along
.... road?' (no pavement, no street lighting and with a recessed entrance to completely dark woodland). I looked at him with incredulity and said 'erm, no, obviously not' and he said 'why not, I do it all the time' and it took quite a while for it to dawn on him why I would be apprehensive to go that walk, by myself, in the dark. I'm not scared of the bloody dark!

And quite aside from the risk aspect of it, can you imagine what I would hear (from Police/justice system etc) if something actually did happen?

He really didn't get how it might be different for a 6ft, built like a brick shit house guy as opposed to me.