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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/02/2025 23:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

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18
ickky · 18/02/2025 18:14

Waitwhat23 · 18/02/2025 18:10

Anas Sarwar and Jackie Baillie of Scottish Labour now desperately backpedaling and saying publicly that 'if we knew what we do now, we wouldn't have voted for the GRR'.

They knew. Women's groups across Scotland warned them repeatedly and were handwaved away.

Craven liars.

Edited

Someone even flashed them a Murkin in protest, still made no impact.

Scout2016 · 18/02/2025 18:22

Have you had the 'Why don't you buy a head torch?' brand of failure-to-get-it yet? (Clueless bloke at running club.)

I often think how sad it is that I still don't feel safe at times even though I'm stone cold sober, already running and in suitable running away clothes and footwear.
I tell my husband when I'm running in the woods. He thinks I'm being paranoid.
My friend asked her husband when he'd got back running from a route she normally avoided if it would be safe for her too. He says yes, definitely. She tries it and of course sees the risks he was oblivious to, like massive hedges that put anyone on those lanes out of sight.

Manxexile · 18/02/2025 18:24

Excuse my ignorance everybody, but what is a "changing village"?

Scout2016 · 18/02/2025 18:27

On the subject of Tavistock, I have been told that one theory is that they shut it down to avoid scrutiny because they also treat children who are a sexual risk to others there, and did not want more media attention. Rather than wholey because they saw the light. Does anyone know if there's any truth in this?
The person who told me is a professional in a related field which has includes working with such children.

Manxexile · 18/02/2025 18:32

Peregrina · 18/02/2025 17:21

I can't put the blame entirely on the CE of NHS Fife, she's been let down by poor guidance on the law and staff that did not do their job properly and I also know her personally and she is the furthest from a " mean girl" you could get, is a very compassionate, sensible person who has dedicated her whole career to the NHS.

You know her personally, but I am not sure that I can fully accept your arguments. The buck stops at the top, however much staff lower down didn't do their jobs properly.

Yes the laws on gender and how they interplay with sex are sloppily drafted, but she should have been on top of what the H & S law said and should have made sure that it was implemented as soon as she became aware of the problem. She ought to be aware of the processes involved in suspending an employee. She should be aware that this didn't happen. It's her business to find out.

This ^

I worked in the NHS for over 25 years.

The most enjoyable trust I worked in - and it was also one of the best rated in terms of quality by the CQC for its specialty - was all down to an excellent Chief Exec who was absolutely on top of everything, both clinical and staff matters.

Unfortunately she was forced to retire because of her ill health and the new Chief Exec and senior management team drove the trust into the ground.

There is absolutely no excuse for a chief exec not to know what's going on - especially when it involves being tied up in a high profile employment tribunal where public feeling is almost 100% behind the claimant and not the employer.

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 18:38

No mention of Scottish Labour yet?

PaintDecisions · 18/02/2025 18:40

My brother was in the finals of Mr Gay UK many moons ago 😂 and I went up to London for Pride where the finalists were being paraded (as part of it) on an open top bus.

After that, we all piled to some massive festival (all a bit hazy due to beer and time passed) where there were some drag comedy acts, a Kylie act (she was so good, I couldn't have told you she wasn't Kylie singing!), Steps etc miming to music...

But I have zero recollection of any transgender anything. And that's not the beer, it just didn't exist. It's been around 20 years.

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 18:48

People who have accepted the propaganda keep saying 'there have always been trans people' and I want to ask them have they any memory of life more than about fifteen years ago? Have they read books, watched movies or old TV shows, learned any history?

MarieDeGournay · 18/02/2025 18:51

PaintDecisions · 18/02/2025 18:40

My brother was in the finals of Mr Gay UK many moons ago 😂 and I went up to London for Pride where the finalists were being paraded (as part of it) on an open top bus.

After that, we all piled to some massive festival (all a bit hazy due to beer and time passed) where there were some drag comedy acts, a Kylie act (she was so good, I couldn't have told you she wasn't Kylie singing!), Steps etc miming to music...

But I have zero recollection of any transgender anything. And that's not the beer, it just didn't exist. It's been around 20 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if you had zero recollection of any lesbian anything either.
Pride became a bit of a single sex space many many moons ago, boyzone😒

edited to say that I was actually a bit impressed about your brother being in Mr GayUK - I know, I know there's no logic to it but I inwardly went ' oooh, good for him!'😄

FannyCann · 18/02/2025 18:54

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 18/02/2025 17:49

I was about to take the dog for a walk and he said 'why don't you go along
.... road?' (no pavement, no street lighting and with a recessed entrance to completely dark woodland). I looked at him with incredulity and said 'erm, no, obviously not' and he said 'why not, I do it all the time' and it took quite a while for it to dawn on him why I would be apprehensive to go that walk, by myself, in the dark. I'm not scared of the bloody dark!

Have you had the 'Why don't you buy a head torch?' brand of failure-to-get-it yet? (Clueless bloke at running club.)

Beware of head torches (especially if you wear glasses).
I asked the daughter for one for Christmas (a couple of years back) to help walk the dog after dark. First time I tried it we had been out all afternoon, dog really needed his walk. It was pitch black (I'm in country, no street lights) and pouring with rain. I put it on and the glare was so bright, with the rain reflecting off my glasses I couldn't see a thing. Moved it a bit higher up my forehead to avoid the glasses, meaning it lit up about ten feet in front of me very brightly but I couldn't see where my feet where going. Promptly tripped over the speed bump in the lane and fell flat on my face, landing in a very deep puddle that had accumulated behind the speed bump. I was wet through to my underwear. I staggered to my feet, completely winded and with chest pain - not heart attack pain, I thought I may have fractured my sternum or something. Collapsed against the wall until the pain eased and I could breathe again.
Decided the dog still needed his walk and there was no point in going in, having a shower, putting on dry clothes and then going back out to the rain so I did the walk, came in and stripped straight off naked to put everything in the washer. DH was amazed 😂
Never dared use the headlamp again but daughter was pleased to take it to Glastonbury and DH finds it useful when he's tinkering with the car.

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 18:57

otoh if you read books, watch movies and films, learn history and talk about ancestry there are at least a few lesbians, even if some of them are vaguely sinister Mrs Danvers types or odd tweedy aunties.

No transgender people at all.

ClioMuse · 18/02/2025 18:58

Manxexile · 18/02/2025 18:24

Excuse my ignorance everybody, but what is a "changing village"?

It's a mixed sex changing area with cubicles and family cubicles.

My swimming pool is a changing village - cubicle doors don't reach the floor or ceiling and staff have to tell people not to use their phones in the area. I believe women are at more risk of sexual assault in these facilities. Would prefer single sex space.

SerafinasGoose · 18/02/2025 18:59

McKinnon is now using the alias Veronica Ivy.

And, incidentally, has a PhD in bullshit.

You don't say.

PaintDecisions · 18/02/2025 19:03

MarieDeGournay · 18/02/2025 18:51

I wouldn't be surprised if you had zero recollection of any lesbian anything either.
Pride became a bit of a single sex space many many moons ago, boyzone😒

edited to say that I was actually a bit impressed about your brother being in Mr GayUK - I know, I know there's no logic to it but I inwardly went ' oooh, good for him!'😄

Edited

Tbf, there were plenty of lesbians at the parade and at the party/concert in the park (can't remember where it was, I was absolutely plastered, had a bad headache from all the poppers around the place then badly sprained my ankle running for the last train!). But I was there with lots of gay men of a certain age, so not many lesbians in their friendship group at that time.

duc748 · 18/02/2025 19:06

Careofanimals · 18/02/2025 17:58

I had to explain to my DH (who I consider generally perceptive and very GC) that the best thing when walking behind a woman in the dark is not to walk faster and overtake to show you are not dangerous, but to overtake on the other side of the road.🙄

Is that so hard? I've been doing it since I was a teenager.

NoWordForFluffy · 18/02/2025 19:10

@FannyCann, I use this kind of light when I go running with the dog in the dark: https://amzn.eu/d/39jG1lO

DH kept asking if I wanted a head torch, but the answer was definitely not!

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 18/02/2025 19:10

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 18:57

otoh if you read books, watch movies and films, learn history and talk about ancestry there are at least a few lesbians, even if some of them are vaguely sinister Mrs Danvers types or odd tweedy aunties.

No transgender people at all.

Josephine Tey and Ruth Rendell both had trans characters.

Also, Mrs Danvers was a lesbian 😮?

(I feel stupid now.)

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 19:11

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 18:57

otoh if you read books, watch movies and films, learn history and talk about ancestry there are at least a few lesbians, even if some of them are vaguely sinister Mrs Danvers types or odd tweedy aunties.

No transgender people at all.

Difficult not to partly relate the growth of the concept to the growth of services claiming to solve the problem through surgery and then hormones.

duc748 · 18/02/2025 19:12

Market forces!

TriesNotToBeCynical · 18/02/2025 19:23

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 19:11

Difficult not to partly relate the growth of the concept to the growth of services claiming to solve the problem through surgery and then hormones.

That could be part of it, but the operations and hormones were freely available, though mainly in the private sector, in the 1970s to my direct knowledge. Has the increase not been mainly in people who don't want any hormones or operations?

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 19:30

Josephine Tey and Ruth Rendell both had trans characters

who, in which books? I haven't read all of Rendell, but have read Tey.

Swashbuckled · 18/02/2025 19:35

@ickky

Not caught up yet but, yes, I do.

After Sarah Everard I googled what kind of penknife I was legally allowed to carry. Bought a Swiss Army knife off Amazon (the legal length) and attached it to a single key, as it was also a key ring.

I often collect flint from the beach; some are very sharp and often long and pointy. Always bring them home, and have several that are the perfect shape to conceal in a hand. Can have one in every coat pocket. Handy to just happen to have come across it in my pocket if needed, and I can say it must have been there since my last beach visit.

I have a large retractable lead for my very small dog. People used to ask why I had such a big lead. But, when I walk him off lead, I put the mechanism on lock so the clip wouldn’t hit me in the face if I lunged with it. The clip stays close to the main body of the lead (which is heavy in itself) and I would aim in to the eye.

My main keyring has a piece of heavy metal sculpture on it. It was made by an artist. That would be perfect for the temples.

In summer, I carry a metal water bottle for the dog; that is also heavy. It would need to go across the back of the skull.

Occasionally men have commented on an item (“big lead for a little dog etc”) and, when I explain, they look at me like I’m some sort of psycho. I think only women understand that checking what you can use as a weapon is second nature. I walk my dog in the dark and, before I leave, I check for my keys, my phone, my dog lead and something weapony.

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 19:40

Having Googled, I'm reminded Tey had a cross dressing woman who was able to do work she could not have done otherwise. Strategic use of clothing to get work is not the same thing as being 'transgender'. In fact I get very annoyed when women in the past who cross-dressed get described as 'trans'. Appropriation much?

Manxexile · 18/02/2025 19:40

duc748 · 18/02/2025 19:06

Is that so hard? I've been doing it since I was a teenager.

Me too.

In the past I've even made an impromptu change to my route home from the pub so as not to appear to be a threat to a lone woman walking home

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