NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Stop invoking the GI Beetlejuice! I can't bear another round of condescension!

Been following this thread ( and similar threads for years). It feels inevitable that incidents like this would increasingly blow up in the face of management in the public sector due to the very poor drafting of law and guidance on this area. Everyone's been unwittingly skating on thin ice but reassured by DEI training and HR that the ice was fine, perfectly safe.
I can't put the blame entirely on the CE of NHS Fife, she's been let down by poor guidance on the law and staff that did not do their job properly and I also know her personally and she is the furthest from a " mean girl" you could get, is a very compassionate, sensible person who has dedicated her whole career to the NHS.

Thank you, @Harassedevictee

Re the changing village situation-

In single sex spaces the girls are fine. There are plenty of other women and girls changing who help each other if necessary. A girl isn’t going to struggle alone there.

It is a bigger issue for boys. I had an 8yr old who was too big for the ladies but not sensible enough for the gents alone. I ended up outside the door of the gents occasionally bellowing in through the door ‘ok Fred? Everything alright? Shall I send someone in to help? Are you nearly ready?’, at intervals.

It reminded the boys that they were not entirely unsupervised, and any predators that someone was paying attention.

Because changing villages are a menace and I feel massively exposed in them.

Thanks for that!

Mr McKinnon who podium photo peeked me in 2019 convinced me no space in women's sports or spaces for men. That's the first time I've heard him speak. What an arrogant Dkhd.

I think Rachel got ditched because of bad publicity and he's onto another name.

Yes there's an understanding about it when you talk about it, but then there's living it. And they are completely different things.

I wrote this on another thread about the issue

A man will go to his graduation party having achieved the highest possible marks in his 'feminism degree', being back slapped all round for understanding women so well, empathising with them, having such great compassion for them, a true feminist who totally gets VAWG.

And then leave the building, clutching his degree, pissed up at midnight, and weave across a deserted car park without a second's thought to get into an unlicensed cab

I can't put the blame entirely on the CE of NHS Fife, she's been let down by poor guidance on the law and staff that did not do their job properly and I also know her personally and she is the furthest from a " mean girl" you could get, is a very compassionate, sensible person who has dedicated her whole career to the NHS.

You know her personally, but I am not sure that I can fully accept your arguments. The buck stops at the top, however much staff lower down didn't do their jobs properly.

Yes the laws on gender and how they interplay with sex are sloppily drafted, but she should have been on top of what the H & S law said and should have made sure that it was implemented as soon as she became aware of the problem. She ought to be aware of the processes involved in suspending an employee. She should be aware that this didn't happen. It's her business to find out.

@Merrymouse

Also RFK jr is clearly making claims that are unscientific nonsense, but it's no less ridiculous to argue that sex is a nebulous concept.

What did RFK Jr say?

https://open.substack.com/pub/knowingius/p/q-and-a-with-naomi-cunningham?r=bvuyv&utm_medium=ios

Many things @ickky, many many things:

theweek.com/2024-presidential-election/1025265/a-running-list-of-rfk-jrs-controversies

And a complete lack of acknowledgment of what some men are like. Is it that they only move in "nice" circles, where all the horrible men conceal themselves behind a cloak of good manners?

The other day I was watching The Equalizer, the scene where Denzel Washington confronts the Russians in their club, when he killed one of the men with a corkscrew.

I found myself idly thinking, that would be a much better weapon than my keys, I could keep one in my handbag with a small bottle of wine for "cover".

I don't know if any other Women have these type of thoughts, but the fact that I have them is surely a indicator of the subconscious/instinctive fear a lot of Women face.

*Disclaimer I have not put a corkscrew in my bag!

@Datun

Yes there's an understanding about it when you talk about it, but then there's living it. And they are completely different things.

This is what I keep trying to get across. Thank you!

Interestingly, it applies both to men’s understanding (or not) of women’s reluctance to eg, walk home alone, but it also applies to trans-identified men’s (utter lack of) understanding that they cannot possibly feel like a woman, because they have never, ever been one.

I was about to take the dog for a walk and he said 'why don't you go along
.... road?' (no pavement, no street lighting and with a recessed entrance to completely dark woodland). I looked at him with incredulity and said 'erm, no, obviously not' and he said 'why not, I do it all the time' and it took quite a while for it to dawn on him why I would be apprehensive to go that walk, by myself, in the dark. I'm not scared of the bloody dark!

Have you had the 'Why don't you buy a head torch?' brand of failure-to-get-it yet? (Clueless bloke at running club.)

On the subject of Brighton Pride, I took my daughter to Brighton for a weekend break about 12 years ago and Pride was on. We had no idea, but we watched the parade. It was full of men dressed as Freddie Mercury or Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. If there was a trans contingent, I don't remember them. It has all been completely hijacked by trans activists in the period since.

Btw I saw figures of referral to the Tavistock by health board. The top places were Somerset and Suffolk and the bottom places were all the London health boards, which feels counter-intuitive. Why isn't London sending kids?

@Arran2024 Because they are all too skint in London to be truly middleclass?

I keep trying to sign this but it won't let me!

True. He still doesn't truly 'get it' because he'll never have that feeling of constant risk assessing. He's still able to pick up the lead and go for the dog walk when and where ever he wants without a seconds thought.

London has numbers of ethnic minorities, perhaps some religions are protective?

I used to carry a perfume spray. Couldnt be deemed an offensive weapon but if I could get it in their eyes should disable them long enough to run.

I had to explain to my DH (who I consider generally perceptive and very GC) that the best thing when walking behind a woman in the dark is not to walk faster and overtake to show you are not dangerous, but to overtake on the other side of the road.🙄

No point giving the HPV vaccine to girls at 11/12 because they have no risk of getting cervical cancer at that age.

We had a police officer give the girls a self defence talk when I was at school in the early 80s. One of his recommended items to carry was a can of body spray/perfume. He also recommended that we made sure that we had metal tips on our stilettos which should be carried once we had changed into flat shoes to walk home plus we should also have a metal spike comb in our bags.
This was on the basis that they wouldn't be considered offensive weapons

I want to repost this article from a couple of years ago. Some men get it https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/30/women-safe-exercise-in-the-dark

So men who are keen to get in should be made welcome. Men who are keen are surely the problem. Those who don't want to are no threat.

Anas Sarwar and Jackie Baillie of Scottish Labour now desperately backpedaling and saying publicly that 'if we knew what we do now, we wouldn't have voted for the GRR'.

They knew. Women's groups across Scotland warned them repeatedly and were handwaved away.

Craven liars.

My ex advised me to carry a tin of beans in a plastic shopping bag for the same reason.