NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

You NI number never changes, but with a GRC you can change the name attached to it. As you can after marriage.

Oh my! I feel ill, please take me to this hospital right now, preferably via the Friends shop!

They are true believers in Tunnock's!! That's a night fine display!

Utter filth <salivates>

Fantastic!

NI is allocated at birth but you get a letter when you’re 16. You can get it earlier for various reasons. I have wondered why we need NI and NHS Nos rather just one number for both,

Ah, Maggie Chapman -

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/maggie-chapman-suspended-after-breaking-29952946

She's an absolute walloper.

I think it's the 'original' Beth, the one Alex Cole-Hamilton was all over a year or two back. Beth Douglas.

Yes, Beth. Pickle Bee.

Oh yes that's right. Sorry I just remembered the kids getting their letters at 16. I'm quite proud I have my original credit card type NI card from ahemm quite a few years ago along with my paper non photo driving licence!

This one? The one ACH 'did it all for'.

That's the one @Waitwhat23 .

"Do you have your Tunnocks bar?"
"Mine's at the shop"
...
"You're in"

And that, of course, is the walloper herself, Maggie Chapman in the bottom right corner with her pal, Beth.

I genuinely worry about Maggie Chapman. And I don't mean for her welfare.

Sadly, I think I'm quite a long way South.

I've introduced the DC to the snowballs. Littlest cried because I would only let him have one 😂

Have now hidden the rest!

The Wikipedia article was interesting. So:
Enlightenment: "men are serious and rational, women are frivolous and superficial" and:
French Revolution and similar ideas: "I'm a useful working-man, not a decadent aristo".

Followed - maybe? - by:
The Burden of Empire: "I'm a pukka sahib who knows what matters and can keep a stiff upper lip, not a silly Native who runs after trinkets and lets it all hang out (just like a woman)". Then:

The rise of Psychology: "I'm a manly man, I am. Not one of Those!"

Followed by two World Wars with a Depression between (focus on utility, uniforms, make do and mend and simply surviving), then the Fifties (when sex differences were again reasserted to get women back into the home).

But it is culturally specific. Saudi men in robes, men in Oceania wearing sarongs with jackets, the occasional rugby supporting Scot, priests and religious.

Lots of men far from Europe wear trousers and some sort of top for the same reason women wear the same thing, it's practical for work and quite comfortable. But it could change - we could all end up in kaftans.

I have been pondering.

The whole premise behind “you may not ask disclose if someone has a GRC” and the presumed motivation for the GMC hiding previous names/sexes, has got to be the old-school idea that trans-identified people will always pass, and that it would be terribly distressing for them if anyone were ever to find out that they used to be “the opposite sex.”

But, other than some trans-identified women (because testosterone is a helluva drug), they generally don’t pass. So, at this point all this obfuscation is just out and out gaslighting of, well everyone. The trans-identified people know, we know, the powers that be know, but everyone (except the little boy who shouted that the Emperor was naked) has to pretend we don’t. It’s ridiculous. No, it’s bullshit.

Also, back to the Dentons document, and how best to sneak stuff in under the radar, I seem to remember someone from around these parts saying that when ITV introduced their trans-identified man character (Hayley Cropper) to Coronation Street, he was played by a woman (Julie Hesmondhalgh), the idea being that people would then have this woman in mind (rather than Pete the Plumber in a dress) when they thought of trans-identified men.

Even with the T and the mastectomies and the beard, the height and the hips make most of the women pretty obvious. Even before they walk.

I was in a queue in the bank a few months back and heard the click of high heels coming towards me and thought 'that isn't a woman walking' and the person appeared and sure enough, wasn't. Though wearing woman-type clothes. No reason not to wear the clothes or go about their banking business in a peaceable way, but also no reason to be given special extra privileges.

Yep.
There's a transman who works in our local Ryman, its 100% clear to me that they are female. Tiny hands and feet, about 5 feet tall, wide hips, female walk, scruffy sparse beard growth that any real man would have shaved off in embarrassment, and the "I've got a bad cold" type voice that testosterone gives them as well as acne and receding hairline.

And this is before you spot the rainbow lanyards etc.

My husband was oblivious when I mentioned it to him. Men just don't pick up on it in the same way.

We are wired to spot sex for many reasons.

Keep it handy. I recently hired a car at Glasgow airport and was asked for my National Insurance number, and they wouldn't give me the car if I couldn't provide it. Luckily I had the little credit card I got when I was 16 in my wallet, goodness knows why I had it. My son in law got caught out too. He had to phone his mum and get her to find an old payslip. They use it to find any convictions on some dvla database apparently.

The doctors Reddit is surprised at the ease with one can have their GMC slate wiped clean https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1iu6sst/thegmcconfirmstothetelegraphthatnew/
particularly liked the comment by a poster claiming it’s unfair to genuine trans people! So close…

”Isn’t that absolutely mad? This seems like a system that will punish trans people. If they actually cared they’d link it. Because it opens it to non trans people to abuse it. It makes me extremely uncomfortable to know I can’t even trust the GMC register as someone can pretend they’ve switched. And let’s be real having a bad history with restrictions on your GMC registration is career ruining. And what stops you waiting a couple of years and going sorry I’ve changed my mind I’m my original gender again?”

This is interesting. If you apply for a gender recognition certificate, they automatically inform HMRC, who inform DWP. The NI number stays the same but they restrict access to the records to specialist staff.

https://www.gov.uk/tell-hmrc-change-of-details/gender-change

DU has made GC ok. He has empowered women, forced some unlikely MSPs to apologise for their previous actions re the GRR. Lib Dems are backtracking, things are moving in a direction few of us could see a year ago.

I think he is a double agent. Dressing up and declaring he is a biological woman in the medical profession together with other provocative stunts is reversing many things for the believers and non believers alike. Was this his ultimate aim?

With a mad cackly laugh, I say he is an agent provocateur!

( I know, I know, it's a lighthearted theory in a sea of madness, but still......)

In the UK it seems that members of a sacred caste have additional rights to people who would otherwise be the usual comparator.

ETA: I would also wonder if gender fluid people would argue for fluid registrations. Why is that when ideology intersects with safeguarding it trumps it?