NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Blimey, I haven't come across King's Fund before. It's light on facts, heavy on bullshit propaganda and heavy on emotive hand wringing, isn't I?

I’ll be writing to my MP this week. She’s taken a LOT of heat on protecting abortion rights but seems to have veered off into trans issues - possibly due to constituents whose children are suffering. Now might be a good moment to flag women’s rights in case those have been forgotten

Probably because he does look quite feminine in still photos.

DH once blurted that there was a transwoman at his workplace 'but you'd never know she wasn't an ordinary woman'. 'So how do you know?' I said.

Apparently it was obvious.

But you'd never know.

Honestly, the man is not usually a blithering idiot.

Blimey, I haven't come across King's Fund before. It's light on facts, heavy on bullshit propaganda and heavy on emotive hand wringing, isn't I?

The Kings Fund do some good stuff too, but just like all the charity sector, they are captured.

It’s all going to hinge on the Grainger Test isn’t it - which individual’s equality rights impinge least/most on the other individual?

Good!

@JustBitetheKnotsOff I keep mis reading your username as 'knob'...

I'm not quite that savage! It was my dog's approach to shoelaces.

I assumed it was an NHS money saving plan for postop care.

Patriarchy.
Mens feeling are more important than women’s safety, dignity … everything.

Many thanks for those creating and contributing to this thread. I googled the tribunal case wanting to make my own mind up on the issues, and this thread was 6 or 7 on Google! Key to me was the link to the live stream and tribunal tweets (I wasn't one of those causing issues!). It would be really good if public access was sorted out by the time it restarts in July, even if say it was limited to the first x requests. Keep up the good work!

Will the tribunal affect policy?

It's already pretty clear that the Fife NHS policy on single sex spaces contravenes 1992 H&S regs.

I thought the question was whether they discriminated against and harassed SP?

I agree that this case highlights the fact that Fife NHS are breaking the law, but I don't see how they could argue that they won on the harassment argument so can still break the H&S regs?

Ok, I’m back to the world of conspiracy theory:

I’ve just properly read the analysis of the Dentons document, and I’m still asking myself (as @rebmacesrevda I think said) cui bono?

I get why the medico-pharmaceutical behemoth wants this, but while the Dentons doc spells out the best way to sneak trans ideology into everyone’s worldview, I still don’t get why? What’s in it for the authors of the document? If they truly believed to the rooftops in what they were saying, they would say it in public, not sneak around trying to get it piggybacked onto more popular law reforms without anyone noticing. Or am I naive, and this is just how things work - like making sure bad news goes out on a day when someone has done something bonkers so you can quietly bury it.

But still, who is pushing/gaining from this? The tiny 0.05% of the population who have gender dysphoria?

Puzzled.

(edit: spelling!)

This was posted on X - I think it dates back to 2022, with discussions in the Scottish parliament pre the self ID legislation. Naomi Cunningham calmly pointing out the holes in Maggie Chapman's argument.

And look 👀 who was an observer, sitting directly behind NC.
It gives a flavour for the time in the tribunal recently when Beth's supporters sat directly behind NC and refused to move when politely requested causing her to have to ask the judge to order them to move as they could see NC's computer screen.

Some might call it intimidating behaviour.
One can also have a sense for how it must have felt for SP to retreat to the changing room to deal with her period, late at night, hospital quiet only to be confronted with BU asserting his right to be there.

x.com/frankleebrian/status/1892299386287280189?s=46

great find

On the issues, I would argue why on earth would any genuinely trans woman need access to womens' changing facilities / wards etc. to "feel like a woman". No woman, struggling to feel womanly, has ever gone right off to the communal changing rooms I go (and I've met quite a few post surgery women struggling with body image when I had a job in lingerie changing rooms).

I think one of the worst reddit posts was a transwomen complaining they had been sacked from working at a women's refuge. Well why do you need to work at a women's refuge? Surely that would raise safeguarding concerns even if the individual was entirely innocent. Similarly anyone insisting on entering female spaces with male intact genitalia should be raising concerns imho. Even more so if they insist when they know their presence is frightening others.

Love this analogy!

If only Sarwar had seen this!

Imagine how silly he must feel now!

(eye roll).

I was following here most of the days, but I missed the last day and didn't find the correct part in threads - what were all the different things Naomi asked for in the end of the hearing, and do we know which were allowed?

I think adding the third respondent was there, maybe some more documents, maybe phone analyses? Does anyone remember please?

LOL I’d imagined this was a matter of style with the alliteration working better - but you’re absolutely right. How about diamond ovaries? Them being a girl’s best friend ‘n all!

When I first read around the whole Denton's playbook and also what I saw as some sort of social contagion amongst our young people, I saw just how sinister and manipulate this ideology is. I believe the idea is to blur the lines and turn upside down the societal standards and norms we hold in terms of how we protect children. Sexualising young children and teens by putting ideas in their head that they are born into the wrong bodies. Handing out puberty blockers to create little humans suspended in a pre pubescent state. Taking away a parent's right to protect and guide their children. It's evil and manipulative. Thank God for the people who continued to push back and shout when it seems as though the rest of the world was happy to go along with it.

I’m not 14. I’m 21. You’re ageist if you can’t see it - and let me buy that bottle of vodka

Random bit of rage for the day, just got a school related email from my two daughter's high school head teacher, signed off at the end (clearly female name) "She/Her".

Fucking knobs.
It's this bollocks that's is partly to blame for the situation we find ourselves in. Immediately noted her as a twat. Unfortunate that she's a head teacher, the school is totally captured, and she's most likely hanging a trans flag as we speak (I've been to the school, you can barely move for trans propaganda and "inclusive" bollocks).

When will this horse shit end?

@TwoLoonsAndASprout

It is about the abolition of safeguarding, grooming in plain sight, trans people are incidental to this movement as were homosexuals in the 70's. It is about paedophilia being just another sexual orientation.

"You are saying that I can't buy this bottle of vodka, but did you know you have to make that argument on a case by case basis? How dare you slur a whole group of people with a protected characteristic!!!"