NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

NC has applied to add Kate Searle (A&E consultant who appears to have sent an email to a number of people branding SP's actions as a hate crime without bothering with any investigation) as a third respondent, to vary the disclosure order to make it more specific in the face of continued disclosure failures by NHS Fife and DU, and for a forensic examination of DU's phone. We do not know the outcome of these applications.

On the issues, I would argue why on earth would any genuinely trans woman need access to womens' changing facilities / wards etc. to "feel like a woman".

They don't, but they want to claim victimhood and entitlement ad nauseum. And, as already discussed, see/enjoy us at our most vulnerable. The feel like a woman thing is an attempt to justify their non-existent argument.

If there is such a thing as a genuine transwoman, are they the ones making all the fuss?

I have no doubt that there are people joining in and backing the campaign for mixed sex facilities, and all the rest, who have no interested in anything trans.

I think you have something there. It’s interesting that if you step back, trans ideology could just be the current tool to allow men with fetishes access to whatever they want (oh, how the trans-identified would literally sob, shake, etc, if they realised they weren’t even the centre of their own movement, let alone the world).

Grrrrr. This is all so rage-inducing.

(oh, how the trans-identified would literally sob, shake, etc, if they realised they weren’t even the centre of their own movement, let alone the world)

This is what would be funny if it wasn't so fucking dangerous - these TWAW screamers with their blue hair and she/hers think they're part of something but those they are potentially changing their lives for wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. Or just dropped a bit of fag ash.

Oral submissions on 15 April 2025 for variation of court order dated 3/1/25, addition of KS as R3, forensic exam of BU phone (Thread 18, page 26, Ickky 15:22, TT tweets)

👏👏 Well done, Dr. Claire Methven O'Brien. That is a wonderfully written article. You should have been allowed to speak and been listened to. Shame on all those people who ignored you.

Finally caught up again, though haven't managed to follow all the links (but keep 'em coming!)

Cracking photo of NC, BU and the other Beth.

My mind keeps returning to BU, on arriving in his job, announcing to someone (his line manager?) that he'd be using the women's facilities. As no woman ever did.... he knows fine well he's a man, doesn't he?

People can be so unquestioning, can't they? 🤔

I've tried to catch up. Is it possible that the hospital are going ahead with the disciplinary meeting so they can say 'We've concluded our investigation. Patient safety is incredibly serious, so we had to investigate thoroughly. SP was found not to have breached patient safety. Phew! We can concentrate on the gender issues now...'

I don't get angry anymore, but I do file people in the 'potential halfwit' folder when they sport pronouns in their signature, and immediately loose a little bit of respect for them. Can't help it.

DC's school teacher is one of those. Which is unfortunate, because she seemed to be one of the better ones.

She's recently been promoted out of the 'halfwit' folder after several direct interactions to help DC and, crucially, pronouns having disappeared from her email signature. But she has been under observation for several years 😶

I did ask her and the curriculum leader (Personal Development) directly who wrote the sex ed material at school (themselves) and how was the topic of gender taught (in passing and not presented as fact). Probably coincidence, but pronouns disappeared a few months after.

The disciplinary meeting was cancelled. NHS Fife say this is at SP's request. It had been announced that SP was taking further legal action against NHS Fife as a result of the meeting, but it isn't clear if that is going ahead given that the meeting was cancelled. There is a lot of speculation about why NHS Fife were doing this but we don't know.

I'm a bit doubtful about Big Pharma being the conspirators.

It's true that a transitioned transperson is a customer for life, but as you say, TwoLoons, that's a small percentage, under 1%, in a limited number of countries - admittedly the rich ones. And it looks like an increasing number of trans-identifying men aren't bothering with any of that expensive and messy hormone and surgery mullarkey, they become women by just saying so. 🙄

Heart conditions, obesity, erectile dysfunction - these are the guaranteed cash cows for Big Pharma, so I'm not sure they'd commit all that time and effort into encouraging transgenderism. Return on investment and all that.

I've read the Denton's document, but not the analysis on GL's site, which I'll read with great interest. It is a mystery to me how and why it seems to have sprung fully-formed out of Denton's head. Thanks for the link ickky.

Do you know if it has been cancelled or just postponed, please?

For the moment it is postponed. Whether it will ever happen is another matter.

Thanks - I do not know how Sandie is coping with the pressure of all this.

I would agree, except for the fact that some of the biggest donors to Stonewall et al have been medico-pharmaceutical companies.

I don’t know. I could get lost down too many rabbit holes if I think about it too much.

Sheila Fogherry covering this on LBC now - started at 3

I remember there was a stat kicking around sometime back that the market for gender medicine in the US was increasing by 11% pa compounded. And they know a cash-cow when they see one. But, the success of recent court cases and tribunals may have thrown that into reverse a bit. It's far from a full explanation anyway. It's not just about money.

A substantial cash cow would be the area known as reproductive justice because this would open it up for much broader populations as an equity and rights issue.

However, it is a striking example of elements of the path to totalitarian systems.

Some of it has uncanny resemblance to the Office of Strategic Services’ Simple Sabotage Field Manual for WWII. (Precursor of CIA.)

If I could add in Orwell from 1984 in the section where he discusses capturing the loyalty of children, their inward ferocity and hoe normal it was for people over 30 to fear their children, I would.

@MarieDeGournay , came back to comment on this bit:

And it looks like an increasing number of trans-identifying men aren't bothering with any of that expensive and messy hormone and surgery mullarkey, they become women by just saying so. 🙄

But! Despite this, there is still the push to medicalise children…

I think what we actually have is a perfect storm of multiple events coinciding - the Dutch protocol for medicalising children hitting the shelves around the same time as Stonewall needing a new raison d’etre and pivoting to trans rights are two parts of the puzzle. There are more, I’m sure.

re Beth's appearance in media photos promoting sympathy, Maya Forstater did a good thread about this on X, noting how all the media pictures showed Peggie and Upton side by side by side, apparently a similar size. When you have them to scale it is clearly apparent why Peggie might be intimidated by him. Pics show an example from media, and the scale pic.

OMG 😲 😱

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine that really shows the difference, and it is important. However, the ET judge and panel will have seen it first hand, IRL.

I am convinced that legalising surrogacy is in the mix of this somewhere. I also think we will see a push to lower the age of consent if the 'trans' child becomes an accepted phenomenon.