NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Indeed that seems sensible. I suppose I don't trust the police not to treat me as a transphobic bigot, in the event of the man in question reporting me for crimes against his feelings.

Well it was a similar use of the word “man” that got SP into trouble. What I’ve learned from the tribunal (and DU’s prompt action) is that attack/prompt action is probably the best form of defence.

And it might be sensible to say something like:

1. What I’m about to say constitutes a protected disclosure under the Equality Act 2010
2. I am entitled to a protected female only space for my privacy, dignity and safety.
3. Please leave.

Theres absolutely nothing there that could be twisted into transphobia because it’s all about the speaker and no “banned words” can be twisted against you.

it would be best to avoid any other discussion without witnesses. So if you’re brave enough to tackle someone like this, I suppose you’d have to be prepared to ask the shop to call the police on them?

I think if he didn't leave I'd call the police myself. But it's 50/50 whether they'd arrest me or him!

The Repeal the GRC - Petition is now at over 11,100 signatures!

Edited to add - that is 1000 since yesterday?

I was just thinking, I think I'd already signed that? But I just tried, and it added me in, so obviously not. They must check if you've already voted.

Theres absolutely nothing there that could be twisted into transphobia because it’s all about the speaker and no “banned words” can be twisted against you.

Don't believe it! As with Dr Upton, we have seen that a trans activist or TW will be prepared to lie under oath. Just breathing the same air as them appears to be enough to be called a transphobe.

I see that on bbc Scotland tonight neil gray the health minister has finally said that women should have single sex spaces and that’s the law

The petition site doesn't tell you if you've already done it, but the 'confirm your signature' email does.

What programme was it on?

And which sex does he say people with a GRC are; birth sex or acquired sex?

BBC Scotland news. After national news 10.30

He was not asked that question

Maybe getting a bit of a monstering in Holyrood earlier persuaded him? I was delighted to see a number of MSPs really go for it.

I'm in a similar position.
There is a man at my sports club who dresses as a woman. He regularly changes from his sportswear to his version of woman clothes. I don't yet know which changing room he uses. The times when I see him are peak times for the junior sections of the club. I'm not sure if I could be brave enough to say anything.

Perhaps Dr Upton has done everyone a favour!

(I am sorry that Sandie had to be the one who suffered during his demonstration of what careless kindness could lead to. )

hopefully it's a little clearer than his earlier assertion, which was

It's important that process is allowed to conclude to allow for the due process to continue to conclude in that process.

I saw that - thanks for the transcription!!

It's important that process is allowed to conclude to allow for the due process to continue to conclude in that process.

I thought I was having a stroke reading this.

Grr! I'm beginning to think that no-one should ever "just" be kind. It does such a lot of harm.

Instead:

Pause.
Engage brain.
Consider everyone involved, not just the ones who are best at Poor Me and puppy-dog eyes, or the fashionable cause that all the right people are talking about.

Then -
#BeKindWISELY

Rant over!

🤣

Well, all I can say to that is "Eh?"
Or possibly "Tha what?"

Yep.

Words can be twisted against you, and they will be.

Telling Upton or anyone like him that they need to leave the changing room because they are male doesn't work. "I am not a man, I am a woman, and as a woman I have a right to be here," says the man.

"Don't stop now..." 🎵

Delurking, NC and I can’t say much…due to professional concerns 🤨. I have been following the tribunal tweets and threads (thanks iccky and nauticant) the last couple of weeks.
I would say, it’s worth doing a quick google of NHS trust staff policies on transgender staff. I found that most state transgender staff can use the facilities for the gender they identify as. Some talk about GRC but several say they can use them from whatever point they transition, they have a ‘legal right’ to use them and while they can be offered a neutral space, they are not obliged to use them. This includes the point they change their name and pronouns or when they start in the trust. Also several say trans staff do not have to disclose their status, employers have no right to tell other staff and my local one states that even asking about it (to the individual or staff) could be viewed as harassment.
I appreciate that NHS Fife did not have a policy in place when the issues occurred but it seems many trusts have created these policies in the last couple of years. I’ve read through most of the threads and I couldn’t see this mentioned previously.

@NebulousExistance

That is absolutely gob smacking.