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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/02/2025 23:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

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18
RhannionKPSS · 19/02/2025 23:53

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 19/02/2025 17:10

Thanks. I will look into it…
There are now so many different groups, FWS, Sex Matters, FiliA, WRN … I’m a bit confused who to go with.

Edited

WRN are a large organization and we are world wide now. There are legions of GC women out here

NebulousExistance · 19/02/2025 23:54

When I saw my local trusts’ policy for the first time, I had concerns. Self-ID seems to be generally accepted in all the policies I’ve seen. I’m not sure how legal it is against the Equality act? I’m reading them as ‘Everyone has the right to single sex spaces, but those single sex spaces must include trans people if they so wish’. (And if staff query this, they will likely be viewed as transphobic).

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 00:05

Does anyone know if single sex spaces is mentioned within the UN Human Rights Acts?
What about Trans?

And a daft thought from me, long hair is no longer an exclusive female thing. Rockers have made long hair 100% acceptable for men, which is something that probably happened in the 1970s.
What would it take to make dresses 👗 and skirts as normal for men as jeans and trousers👖 are for women?

Heggettypeg · 20/02/2025 00:13

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 00:05

Does anyone know if single sex spaces is mentioned within the UN Human Rights Acts?
What about Trans?

And a daft thought from me, long hair is no longer an exclusive female thing. Rockers have made long hair 100% acceptable for men, which is something that probably happened in the 1970s.
What would it take to make dresses 👗 and skirts as normal for men as jeans and trousers👖 are for women?

If they rebadged dresses as tunics (short) and robes or gowns (long) and tapped into historical enthusiasms, they might be able to start something, even if it was a bit niche at first. Like the "Empire" fashions for women in Jane Austen's time - weren't they inspired by Greek and Roman styles of dress and hair?

prh47bridge · 20/02/2025 00:16

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 00:05

Does anyone know if single sex spaces is mentioned within the UN Human Rights Acts?
What about Trans?

And a daft thought from me, long hair is no longer an exclusive female thing. Rockers have made long hair 100% acceptable for men, which is something that probably happened in the 1970s.
What would it take to make dresses 👗 and skirts as normal for men as jeans and trousers👖 are for women?

There is no UN Human Rights Act. There is a Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There is also the European Convention on Human Rights which is brought into UK law by the Human Rights Act. Neither of these says anything about single sex spaces or trans.

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 00:32

@prh47bridge thanks 😊 I knew someone would know the answer.

@Heggettypeg maybe. Someone will start a new fashion for men. I do feel for men who'd want to have a bigger choice of clothing styles. But feel restricted by fashion / gender conventions.

Heggettypeg · 20/02/2025 01:09

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 00:32

@prh47bridge thanks 😊 I knew someone would know the answer.

@Heggettypeg maybe. Someone will start a new fashion for men. I do feel for men who'd want to have a bigger choice of clothing styles. But feel restricted by fashion / gender conventions.

It's odd, really, because for quite a lot of history, well-to-do men's fashions have been fairly flamboyant, even in the West. I suppose (before cheap machine-made clothes) poor men never had much choice and even when they did, they had to wear what was practical for labour.

I'm not sure when trousers first came in, or exactly when they became the only option. There were fancy kinds of breeches around from the late Middle Ages onwards, I think, and they varied in shape and fullness. The Regency dandies were a last fling of male peacockery but by then, skirts were long gone, and then the Victorian Age of the Suit set in; and it seems even countercultural men, apart from the deliberate gender-benders, haven't quite managed to escape from trousers ever since.

Justme56 · 20/02/2025 01:13

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2025.02.20-004435/www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/trans-nhs-staff-must-be-allowed-to-use-preferred-facilities-8553pk6rl" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.is/2025.02.20-004435/www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/trans-nhs-staff-must-be-allowed-to-use-preferred-facilities-8553pk6rl

The NHS really don’t like the idea of women having any privacy.

Justme56 · 20/02/2025 01:15

That didn’t work! Hopefully someone with an archive will be able to help.

SqueakyDinosaur · 20/02/2025 01:19

https://archive.ph/l0tag

I think this is the droid you are looking for.

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 01:27

SqueakyDinosaur · 20/02/2025 01:19

https://archive.ph/l0tag

I think this is the droid you are looking for.

My jaw has hit the floor!

How long before SNP get their act together and make things crystal clear what the position is?
They seem to be waffling lots of hot air at the moment but saying nothing.

It should not be down to one nurse to fight the establishment that NHS staff should have single sex spaces.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 20/02/2025 01:28

The Romans thought native Britons were weird and uncivilised for wearing trousers. At some point they went out in favour of hose and tunic (later doublet) for young men and robes/gowns for older ones. Short gowns/smocks for some physical jobs. When hose and doublets gave way to breeches, trousers were a mark of the labouring classes through the 17th and 18th centuries.

So trousers or trouser-like garments have pretty much always been with us as a practical item - but men who could afford it, and didn't have to choose clothes by practicality, had plenty of other more interesting options until the 19th century.

I blame Beau Brummel. The Dandies may now have a reputation as style obsessed clothes horses, but really they are the ones who made men's clothes dull. No makeup, no wigs, no big embroidered skirts on coats - just plain dark coats, plain trousers, plain boots. All immaculately and expensively tailored, sure, but no fun.

Heggettypeg · 20/02/2025 01:31

Surely by insisting on deciding "case by case" , they are setting themselves up for an endless stream of grievance cases alleging unfairness to particular individuals. And if any of those people have other protected characteristics, or there seems to be a pattern of discrimination, there will be hell (and huge bills) to pay.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 20/02/2025 01:36

"An evidence-based reason must be provided."

Sure, I can do that: It's The Law.

Needspaceforlego · 20/02/2025 01:45

@NoBinturongsHereMate yes mens clothes are dull. Even for little boys once they are out of the toddler ranges it's kaki, gray, navy, sludge, black. It regularly comes up on the AIBU board. I can see why some men would want more flamboyant choices.

@Heggettypeg case by case is just kicking the issue down the pecking order, let some other minon make the decision and the flack when someone complains. He who shouts loudest.

And in this case it was Dr Beth Upton who shouted loudest and Mrs Sandie Peggie took the kicking.
I'm praying she has solid support behind her but my God have they under-estimated Mrs Sandie Peggie

Heggettypeg · 20/02/2025 01:52

NoBinturongsHereMate · 20/02/2025 01:28

The Romans thought native Britons were weird and uncivilised for wearing trousers. At some point they went out in favour of hose and tunic (later doublet) for young men and robes/gowns for older ones. Short gowns/smocks for some physical jobs. When hose and doublets gave way to breeches, trousers were a mark of the labouring classes through the 17th and 18th centuries.

So trousers or trouser-like garments have pretty much always been with us as a practical item - but men who could afford it, and didn't have to choose clothes by practicality, had plenty of other more interesting options until the 19th century.

I blame Beau Brummel. The Dandies may now have a reputation as style obsessed clothes horses, but really they are the ones who made men's clothes dull. No makeup, no wigs, no big embroidered skirts on coats - just plain dark coats, plain trousers, plain boots. All immaculately and expensively tailored, sure, but no fun.

Very interesting post; thanks!

The Empire dresses were quite a stripped-down kind of style too. I wonder what it all meant? Classical Civilisation versus Blingy Barbarians, perhaps. Plus the perennial "Dad and Mum wear all those fussy old things so I wouldn't be seen dead in them"

Sothatsalrighthen · 20/02/2025 03:37

https://x.com/lucyhunterb/status/1892251356146069664?s=46&t=BRUxTjZ34agAPkVo-fi3zA
With regard to which law applies.

eulittleb831 · 20/02/2025 04:49

NebulousExistance · 19/02/2025 23:45

Delurking, NC and I can’t say much…due to professional concerns 🤨. I have been following the tribunal tweets and threads (thanks iccky and nauticant) the last couple of weeks.
I would say, it’s worth doing a quick google of NHS trust staff policies on transgender staff. I found that most state transgender staff can use the facilities for the gender they identify as. Some talk about GRC but several say they can use them from whatever point they transition, they have a ‘legal right’ to use them and while they can be offered a neutral space, they are not obliged to use them. This includes the point they change their name and pronouns or when they start in the trust. Also several say trans staff do not have to disclose their status, employers have no right to tell other staff and my local one states that even asking about it (to the individual or staff) could be viewed as harassment.
I appreciate that NHS Fife did not have a policy in place when the issues occurred but it seems many trusts have created these policies in the last couple of years. I’ve read through most of the threads and I couldn’t see this mentioned previously.

Surely the point is irregardless of the depths to which GI has penetrated the NHS, the employer has to provide SSS. Accommodating men dressing up legally can not be to the detriment of women.

Igneococcus · 20/02/2025 06:08

Sharetoken for the Times article below for those (like me) who have difficulties accessing archive versions:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/37c1efea-8cf2-48a8-ad2d-4e9ead91c8d4?shareToken=8c43f389eece62c23655e400e261a173

orangegato · 20/02/2025 06:24

Neil Gray has really made my piss boil. What a weak pathetic man. At least he was called out on it. I bet he screamed into a pillow after that shit show.

I really hope the MSPs don’t drop it and the same thing happens for Keir, hopefully he can dislodge the fence post from his backside at some point. I won’t hold my breath.

snickersbarchild · 20/02/2025 07:12

Morning Wims! Just checking in and seeing what further batshittery has developed over night and NHS have not disappointed. WTF!

BezMills · 20/02/2025 07:16

I'm a big fan of @NoBinturongsHereMate dropping KNOWLEDGE on the threads.

KnottyAuty · 20/02/2025 07:35

Profile on Neil Gray here - he has 3 daughters.

www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,neil-gray-every-working-parent-always-has-dadguilt-or-mumguilt-i-am-no-different

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 20/02/2025 07:40

www.holyrood.com/comment/view,peggie-v-nhs-fife-more-casualties-to-come

Haven't heard this woman's voice before. Dr Claire Methven O'Brien is a commissioner on the Scottish Human Rights Commission.

Sounds like she has been trying her best to get her voice heard but has been stonewalled. Sadly this is written in a personal fatter than official capacity.

Shes right, it is a human rights violation to be forced to undress in front of the opposite sex.

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