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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/02/2025 23:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

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18
Britinme · 19/02/2025 17:27

I tried to find out if there was a Women's Rights Network in my US state. Apparently not, as I assume it's a UK organization, and literally every variation on that theme I could find said they were supporting "reproductive and gender-affirming health care". So much for that idea. Over here, the whole notion of "gender-affirming health care" seems to have been deeply entwined with abortion rights, which makes it awkward for those of us in favour of the latter but not of the former.

SqueakyDinosaur · 19/02/2025 17:40

Neil Gray hasn't had it all his own way - back in Holyrood he is looking distinctly uncomfortable as MSP after MSP asks him pointy questions about NHS Fife: https://x.com/i/status/1892242954502205477

This is pleasing to watch, but it also raises the question of how the FUCK we got here.

Justme56 · 19/02/2025 17:41

@Britinme have you looked at WoLF. I’m in the UK so don’t know much about it but it maybe worth a look.

oldwomanwhoruns · 19/02/2025 18:05

rebmacesrevda · 19/02/2025 17:17

I applied a few days ago and am still awaiting a response. I hope this means they're overwhelmed with applications right now!

You should hear back soon, @rebmacesrevda ! Your application will have been sent on to your local group. We are all volunteers & fit in the WRN organisation around our jobs, commitments etc.
If you don't hear in ages then contact them again. I can't speak for other groups but yes, we've suddenly gained more members! The Peggie Effect, I think 😊

Britinme · 19/02/2025 18:09

Thanks @Justme56 - have now done so. Definitely worth a look.

AAT65 · 19/02/2025 18:13

prh47bridge · 19/02/2025 09:29

That is defined in the Fraud Act. Basically, it means you are fraudulently trying to make a financial gain for yourself or someone else, or you are fraudulently trying to cause someone to suffer a financial loss.

Fraud Act 2006 does not apply in Scotland.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 19/02/2025 18:21

RethinkingLife · 19/02/2025 13:06

It was a different thread but I confessed that I want to go full on Lord of the Rings - Helms Deep and Gates of Mordor - on the doors of NHS England.

I've been thinking that Dr Upton has made the same mistake as Saruman, where he tried to exert his mind control on someone in the presence of others (in the book, at Orthanc after the Ents have destroyed all but the tower). Gimli says "The words of this wizard stand on their heads. In the language of Orthanc help means ruin, and saving means slaying."

Upton trying to control Naomi Cunningham in front of hundreds of witnesses and talking complete word salad nonsense has broken the spell for a lot more people, and brought a lot of political attention to the matter.

I see that Neil Gray has backed NHS Fife, possibly not realising that they are a respondent.

BezMills · 19/02/2025 18:22

SqueakyDinosaur · 19/02/2025 17:40

Neil Gray hasn't had it all his own way - back in Holyrood he is looking distinctly uncomfortable as MSP after MSP asks him pointy questions about NHS Fife: https://x.com/i/status/1892242954502205477

This is pleasing to watch, but it also raises the question of how the FUCK we got here.

Eh eh eh eh, eh eh.

"Say EH again, muddyflupper!"

Good to see MSPs at work

CheekySnake · 19/02/2025 18:24

Arran2024 · 19/02/2025 16:57

My daughter had her tonsils out a few years ago (during lock down). She was 21 then. And her biggest worry was that she would be sexually abused on the way down to the operating theatre, or afterwards in recovery.

Isn't that awful? She had previous ops for different things and I always got to accompany her because of this fear. But during lock down she was on her own.

Anyway, we adopted her at nearly 2. She was removed from her birth family at 6 months and there is no evidence of sexual abuse.

But the therapist we saw when she was 5 tld me that her hypervigilance and anxiety were off the scale (though she tried very hard to hide them). Therapist said that those who have experienced early trauma see possibilities for danger everywhere. There was a fireplace in the room. Therapist said that if she asked a child, in that room, what his/her parents might do to them if they were really angry with him/her, a child from a non trauma background would say sth like "ground me" but the kids from a trauma background would say "put me up the chimney" even though none of them had ever been put up a chimney. But they could see the possibility.

And imo this is one of the big reasons we have such a lack of understanding among the elite who run our organisations and the rest of us. We might not be at the "put me up the chimney" level - though some are, and they matter - but we have enough instinct to see the possibilities eg when we see or envision a man in the ladies. And these women in senior positions don't seem to share this. Has it been driven down, out of their consciousness, or did they have amazingly secure childhoods which allowed them to soar?

My daughter can't have men walking in. She would panic, flee (her trauma response). TRAs have told her it's my job to teach her not to panic but it's impossible. Her amygdala is triggered in a nano second, before any thought processes kick in.

All women deserve same sex spaces. Most of us will be triggered by seeing a man in a women's space, but for women with a trauma history, it is especially important, otherwise they won't be able to go out. Same sex spaces are part of the scaffolding my daughter needs to navigate the world safely.

I've got it under better control now, but early to late teens I was absolutely petrified of men and without single sex spaces, could not have left the house. I couldn't go to the counter in a shop if there was a man on the till. It was debilitating. I grew up with a controlling, violent monster of a father. I am so, so acutely aware of the the fact that for some women, single sex spaces aren't just a nice thing to have, they're vital for us to be able to function in society. (I'm also aware that a lot of young women will very proudly say that they've got no problem sharing with men - I've got my own thoughts as to why they do this)

Heggettypeg · 19/02/2025 18:24

DeanElderberry · 19/02/2025 17:09

he said yes, lots of people don't agree with women doctors

does the stupid and arrogant twonk know that the Medical Act 1876 enables anyone of either sex to be licensed as a doctor? I know it isn't quite 150 years, but I'd have thought news would have reached Scotland by now.

Many women not just agree with women doctors, they seek them out as GPs and as consultants. For the same sort of reasons they will shun a doctor who does not know that a woman is.

I wonder how much work women (and the men who supported them) had to put in to get women included in that Act?

If they hadn't bothered, there might have been another employment tribunal a few years ago - about whether or not Dr Upton, "as a woman", was still a fit person to practise medicine.

NebulousDogBollocking · 19/02/2025 18:33

(I'm also aware that a lot of young women will very proudly say that they've got no problem sharing with men - I've got my own thoughts as to why they do this)

@CheekySnake I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are. I have wondered if it's a type of fawning, to keep themselves 'safe', even if they don't realise it consciously?

More blatantly perhaps trying to appear superior to us lowlife 'bigots' who have boundaries and want the autonomy we should be entitled to?

I'm sorry you've been through what you have Flowers

rebmacesrevda · 19/02/2025 18:37

A bit dark but I keep thinking, what am I going to do if a man pretending to be a woman decides to use the women's changing room at my gym? Am I going to confront him, knowing I could get arrested for a "hate crime"? Do I have to wait for him to physically assault someone before I intervene? If he's just there to have a look, do I just have to let him carry on? I'm in my 40s so I won't be the primary target but I would feel compelled to defend teenage girls in there. Then I could end up in court and be forced to apologise for "misgendering" him. It's utterly insane.

Arran2024 · 19/02/2025 18:40

NebulousDogBollocking · 19/02/2025 18:33

(I'm also aware that a lot of young women will very proudly say that they've got no problem sharing with men - I've got my own thoughts as to why they do this)

@CheekySnake I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are. I have wondered if it's a type of fawning, to keep themselves 'safe', even if they don't realise it consciously?

More blatantly perhaps trying to appear superior to us lowlife 'bigots' who have boundaries and want the autonomy we should be entitled to?

I'm sorry you've been through what you have Flowers

I think it's a superiority thing, like with those macho girls who are happy to play rugby and football with men and can't see what the problem is - this is just a different version of it. They are separating themselves from women in general because they despise the weakness they see there - they think their mums sold out and they won't make the same mistake.

Victoria Smith's book 'Hags' explains this in more detail.

NebulousDogBollocking · 19/02/2025 18:49

Thank you @Arran2024 , I'll have a look. It sounds like yet another part of the indoctrination then.

CheekySnake · 19/02/2025 19:05

Arran2024 · 19/02/2025 18:40

I think it's a superiority thing, like with those macho girls who are happy to play rugby and football with men and can't see what the problem is - this is just a different version of it. They are separating themselves from women in general because they despise the weakness they see there - they think their mums sold out and they won't make the same mistake.

Victoria Smith's book 'Hags' explains this in more detail.

I think they are two things going on; First off, they think it makes them more attractive to men, and secondly, it's a coping mechanism in a world where the realities of male violence and male sexuality are inescapable. It helps them feel that they've got some level of control. They're not like the anxious girls who are trying to move forward from terrifying experiences. And because they're not like them, it won't happen to them.

Women who talk about their experiences of domestic violence are often punished for it socially by men and other women. Look at JKR.

KnottyAuty · 19/02/2025 19:45

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 19/02/2025 17:23

This is fascinating - might explain a lot..

I’ve had major issues trying to explain to certain other women (who call themselves feminists) why I have anxiety around dark paths/backstreets, isolated countryside walks, toilets or changing areas that are down back corridors in pubs/nightclubs etc, any kind of situation where I might be attacked. They’re literally baffled. They think I’m paranoid, or overly suspicious of men.. and to be fair, that’s how I was too because I grew up in the Thatcher era where women could and should do and be anything that men could - and then “ladette” culture happened, and it was all about aping male behaviours, being a “cool girl”, downing the pints with the rest of them, not doing anything “boring”. And so for a while I was utterly carefree, until one night it happened. And then BAM! I wasn’t any more. All my illusions were shattered. My female body, that body I couldn’t think my way out of, suddenly loomed right up as the reason I was different and vulnerable and from that moment on I could not unsee it. And yea lots of people did say to me: what were you thinking of, taking that short cut at night in the dark? I was so so carefree. Until I wasn’t. It has haunted me ever since. And I think these women maybe just haven’t had that BAM moment…

I’m so sorry to hear about your experience. It could have been anyone and I’m sorry it was you. You should have been able to take that shortcut. It was the man who created your BAM moment who was in the wrong. It’s so important you keep raising awareness because it’s not ok that the politicians have left us all with a mess and more chance of others being unnecessarily put at risk. Because we all have different experiences and I think it’s fair to say the trans community have somehow put their traumas forward for assistance - even though it may be that this isn’t based on any tangible/current evidence. I suspect a lot of the vulnerable group stuff comes from many years ago rather than the risks today.

I think it’s safe to say that women in positions of power have probably experienced only relatively minor sexual harassment. I think it’s a complicated situation - “successful” humans tend to be taller than average, which also makes it less likely that they’ll be seen as someone who can be overpowered. So there’s possibly less chance of a serious assault because of their physical presentation but probably also as well as inner confidence from their upbringing.

That’s why it’s so important for women to speak up - I think the political class have been swayed by parents of trans kids and vociferous young people to date. While they do have needs, I think they represent a small portion of society and their needs can’t override the needs of other vulnerable groups. It’s what makes this whole SP situation so ridiculous to the everyday person in the street.

Llamasarellovely · 19/02/2025 19:51

NebulousDogBollocking · 19/02/2025 18:33

(I'm also aware that a lot of young women will very proudly say that they've got no problem sharing with men - I've got my own thoughts as to why they do this)

@CheekySnake I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are. I have wondered if it's a type of fawning, to keep themselves 'safe', even if they don't realise it consciously?

More blatantly perhaps trying to appear superior to us lowlife 'bigots' who have boundaries and want the autonomy we should be entitled to?

I'm sorry you've been through what you have Flowers

Yes, this. And I was definitely one of those young women. I would say it was part superiority, part this will keep me safe, part just utter naivety. I was coasting through life as an attractive high achiever, doors were open! Nothing to fear! Until like the other poster, BAM, lots to fear. And none of it possible to identify out of.
I would absolutely have been a TWAW zealot. I'd have been wrong. I'm not wrong now.

KnottyAuty · 19/02/2025 19:53

oldwomanwhoruns · 19/02/2025 18:05

You should hear back soon, @rebmacesrevda ! Your application will have been sent on to your local group. We are all volunteers & fit in the WRN organisation around our jobs, commitments etc.
If you don't hear in ages then contact them again. I can't speak for other groups but yes, we've suddenly gained more members! The Peggie Effect, I think 😊

The Peggie Effect!

love that!

DeanElderberry · 19/02/2025 20:12

Yes, @ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly, that's it. a BAM moment and once it's happened there's no going back. Though I think some women bury their BAM really deeply because it is so unbearable. But understanding it is one way we can help ourselves and each other.

KnottyAuty · 19/02/2025 20:15

NebulousDogBollocking · 19/02/2025 18:33

(I'm also aware that a lot of young women will very proudly say that they've got no problem sharing with men - I've got my own thoughts as to why they do this)

@CheekySnake I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are. I have wondered if it's a type of fawning, to keep themselves 'safe', even if they don't realise it consciously?

More blatantly perhaps trying to appear superior to us lowlife 'bigots' who have boundaries and want the autonomy we should be entitled to?

I'm sorry you've been through what you have Flowers

I’ve assumed that it’s because this generation has largely been insulated from many negative aspects of being female. My generation did well but the young professionals have almost no barriers through to early career.

Women now do better at school, more go on to university and generally things are on the up. (I think this is why trans and incel men are fighting back but that’s another thread). Lots is made of diversity and there are loads of initiatives aimed at girls and ethnic minority groups. If you’re told you can have it all then why would you think differently?

Even in the workplace things go well for a long time… until kids come along and suddenly there’s a sharp collision with reality (if they’ve been lucky to avoid this beforehand). The realisation that your partner said they were a feminist doesnt stand up to real life tests. Many younger women have no idea what’s ahead and then others who waited to have kids later have extra support and money to buy in childcare. For those in that situation it can be difficult to understand how privileged they are, and to understand the needs of others. It’s an empathy gap - which is why sharing stories is so important because when confronted with others’ experiences we can take that on board and lend our voices in support. Just as many have for Sandie Peggie

anyolddinosaur · 19/02/2025 20:18

i hope everyone is responding to the current NHS consultation https://change.nhs.uk/en-GB/

My comments may have included something about losing the respect of the population by abandoning science based medicine (puberty blockers) and their attitude to women complaining about men in their changing rooms.....

prh47bridge · 19/02/2025 20:33

AAT65 · 19/02/2025 18:13

Fraud Act 2006 does not apply in Scotland.

Apologies, yes, but my understanding is that Scottish law uses broadly the same definition. However, I'm not an expert on Scottish law so feel free to correct me.

Cismyfatarse · 19/02/2025 20:48

Politicians should be ashamed of their support for gender reform bill

www.thetimes.com/article/5e7d69df-9627-4a76-aa10-526ae3c23680?shareToken=0c6bf937a3ed6b849ab2ba62d3483d4f

eulittleb831 · 19/02/2025 21:09

rebmacesrevda · 19/02/2025 18:37

A bit dark but I keep thinking, what am I going to do if a man pretending to be a woman decides to use the women's changing room at my gym? Am I going to confront him, knowing I could get arrested for a "hate crime"? Do I have to wait for him to physically assault someone before I intervene? If he's just there to have a look, do I just have to let him carry on? I'm in my 40s so I won't be the primary target but I would feel compelled to defend teenage girls in there. Then I could end up in court and be forced to apologise for "misgendering" him. It's utterly insane.

“this is a female
only changing room and you have no right to be here as you are a male. Please leave immediately”. No misgendering there, fully within your rights.

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