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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

OP posts:
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32
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 09:42

IDareSay · 18/02/2025 09:41

I have kept this article bookmarked as it refutes many such arguments:

thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

Also brilliant - thank you!!

Rightsraptor · 18/02/2025 09:46

I was born in 1954, married in 1975 and was offered the chance to have the 'married woman's stamp' when I joined the Civil Service.

Fortunately I had the sense to decline the offer. I'd be in a right old pickle now if I had taken it. I have an older friend who did, got divorced and now gets about a third or quarter of the state pension.

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 09:50

Harassedevictee · 18/02/2025 09:38

Maternity and SMP is one that will remain.

But you get those because you submit a MAT B1 form, not because HMRC knows your sex.

BonfireLady · 18/02/2025 09:52

BonfireLady · 18/02/2025 09:29

As this thread draws to a close, I have accepted that I will be forever on catch-up. I'm currently on page 9, immersed in the utter madness of NHS Fife "inviting" Sandie to an internal disciplinary hearing this Friday for misgendering and other "crimes" against gender identity belief. I already know this isn't going ahead but I find the comments and different perspectives so valuable that I want to keep reading through them.

This feels like such a key moment in national awakening about the harms related to gender identity belief, centred around the NHS.

@Boiledbeetle your reply to me at the start of this thread suggests you're already on it with Volume 3 😉 Can I put in a request that it's an NHS special? This case has brought so many lurkers and new joiners into the conversation, many of whom work for the NHS or in other health-related roles.

Besides what's coming to the fore in this case about single-sex spaces, I know from my own conversations IRL that there is an increasing number of professionals (in health and education) who are concerned that children and vulnerable young people are being irreversibly harmed by the unquestioning adherence to gender identity belief. Dr Upton has shown us what that looks like, how it risks overshadowing good medical practice when it is centred in patient care, how it puts NHS staff in positions where they are part of that harm and part of enforcing this belief (e.g. part of the systematic failing to safeguard vulnerable people in situations that should/could assume same-sex care by default). Poor Pete the Misgendered Plumber isn't real but there are many, many real people who are at risk of bad medical practice when sex isn't recognised as real and a belief in gendered souls is prioritised instead.

Dr Upton and other believers can carry on believing in gendered souls. But supporting this as if it were real and important in both healthcare and NHS employee welfare? No. This needs to stop.

I will submit my poem about the impact enforced belief in health care in due course. I'm sufficiently angry now to write it. In the meantime, thank you to all of the doctors, nurses and other health professionals who are already on this thread today and to those who stumble upon it over the next few weeks. If you're reading this and are thinking about how you can make a difference, you are already part of effecting change.

As food for thought on gender identity belief, I'm going to leave this video here:

I used to believe I had a gender identity. I no longer do. This video helped me get my head around it all after many months of trying to figure out what it all meant - there are lots of examples of me trying to understand it on MN threads, with an open mind. I still don't challenge the belief directly. People believe all sorts of things that I don't, like the idea that a virgin can give birth to a human child who was conceived without sperm. However, I absolutely challenge with every fibre in my body (driven by a motivation to protect my autistic, adolesent daughter from harm - and others like her) this belief being accommodated in law, education, healthcare and more as if it's fact. This has to end.

Edited for typo

Edited

To add:

It should make no difference from a safeguarding and legal perspective whether people like Dr Upon are true believers or are simply flying in from Málaga Airport to tell us that they are.

When we safeguard in relation to belief, we assume that some people will feign theirs, or at the very least twist their belief, to further their own aims. We've seen it countless times with other beliefs - and sadly are still failing at this e.g. the recent debacle with Justin Welby's handling of a case of harm. To name a couple more, Jimmy Savile was a practising Christian, the recent rape/grooming gangs include many practising Muslims. An alleged example (AFAIK it's still not come to court, despite it being 30-40 years ago) involving harm against adults was the Sheffield rave vicar.

Although I'm an atheist, I'm going to give the benefit of doubt here and assume that neither Christianity nor Islam permits such a nefarious twisting of morality at its core (despite lots of historical abuses and power imbalances in the church), where declared believers get to indulge their own paraphilias. We need to apply the same standards to how gender identity belief is managed. Paraphilias are a danger to society, particularly so when they are left to run rampant without a critical mass of people knowing they exist. The 80s saw an awakening of awareness about paedophila. It's time we had the same regarding autogynophilia.

Edited for typo

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 09:53

@BonfireLady, you do know that where one thread closes, another one opens, don’t you?

#climbeverymountain

😜

NeedToChangeName · 18/02/2025 09:53

Chrysanthemum5 · 18/02/2025 08:36

Because that requires work and actually changing things whereas trans requires wearing a rainbow lanyard and worrying about pronouns. Of course it also involves trampling over the rights of women but that is apparently irrelevant.

Every time some bangs on about wearing the rainbow lanyard at work I always ask where is our la heard to show solidarity with the people who can't access our buildings as so many have no disabled access

Yes, and calling males "she" / using preferred pronouns costs nothing. It's an cheap and easy way to pretend to care about equality without actually doing the hard stuff

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 09:54

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 09:50

But you get those because you submit a MAT B1 form, not because HMRC knows your sex.

Having said that, I'm sure Michael Foran mentioned some maternity related rights thats weren't available to trans men because of the wording in legislation?

Peregrina · 18/02/2025 09:55

I was born in 1954, married in 1975 and was offered the chance to have the 'married woman's stamp' when I joined the Civil Service.

I was born in 1951. The "married woman's stamp" was abolished in May 1977. I got married in the September so it never applied to me.

Going off at a slight tangent, talking about changes in the law. I had a couple of gaps in my NI record, so I paid up for them. It wasn't too much money. Later they changed the law on qualifying years so I would have qualified without paying the extra and I needn't have bothered. But I had no idea that the law would change, and it might never have done. So HR departments weaselling out by saying that the law will change are talking out of their arses because it might not.

Harassedevictee · 18/02/2025 09:59

WandaSiri · 18/02/2025 09:34

I don't think it's possible to define gender - nobody has been able to do it so far - and I don't see how it would be helpful. Basically, I don't understand your argument for recognising gender.

If we repealed the GRA, stopped issuing new GRCs and made it clear in the repealing legislation that the existing ones are only valid for the purposes in the GRA (eg new birth certificate, marrying as the opposite sex), what would be wrong with that?

It’s up to the law makers to define gender - it will be a bun fight but as long as it is distinct to sex let those who believe in it fight it out.

I just do not think it is realistic to legally erase a section of society. You are entitled to your beliefs but they are entitled to theirs.

Removing anyone’s hard won legal rights is not right. Clarifying and drawing a legal divide between sex and gender is an equitable way to move forward.

EDI has, quite rightly, had a very bad time. However, the principles of inclusion and equality/equity are not fundamentally bad. It’s how they have been skewed and weaponised that is the problem.

I have said before Keira Bell is in legal limbo as she has a GRC making her legally male. We need a legal process for detransitioners. How do you write that not using the word gender?

How do you legislate against PB and surgery for children if you don’t use the word gender?

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 10:00

Peregrina · 18/02/2025 09:55

I was born in 1954, married in 1975 and was offered the chance to have the 'married woman's stamp' when I joined the Civil Service.

I was born in 1951. The "married woman's stamp" was abolished in May 1977. I got married in the September so it never applied to me.

Going off at a slight tangent, talking about changes in the law. I had a couple of gaps in my NI record, so I paid up for them. It wasn't too much money. Later they changed the law on qualifying years so I would have qualified without paying the extra and I needn't have bothered. But I had no idea that the law would change, and it might never have done. So HR departments weaselling out by saying that the law will change are talking out of their arses because it might not.

"So HR departments weaselling out by saying that the law will change are talking out of their arses because it might not."

Also, imagine if they announced they were going ignore equality legislation completely in anticipation of Reform winning the next election? It's complete nonsense.

Harassedevictee · 18/02/2025 10:01

I am really conscious that this thread is moving away from the original subject of Sandie Peggie.

Yes I have contributed to that 😂.

We are nearing the end of the thread so I am going to step away and wait for this thread to fill up.

RedToothBrush · 18/02/2025 10:04

Harassedevictee · 18/02/2025 10:01

I am really conscious that this thread is moving away from the original subject of Sandie Peggie.

Yes I have contributed to that 😂.

We are nearing the end of the thread so I am going to step away and wait for this thread to fill up.

Is it? It's not.

It's about the decision of Fife to follow EDI and not the law.

That's a crucial facet of the case.

She was bullied and harassed for wanting to uphold her rights under the law.

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 10:09

Harassedevictee · 18/02/2025 08:39

You may not get them to change using gender but as per best practice they need to define what they mean and include a “I do not have a gender” option.

For clarity, you would need a box that said I have a sex [F] [M] and do not identify as having a separate gender.

Just saying 'I do not have a gender' would have them identifying you as n b or agender or something equally meaningless.

BonfireLady · 18/02/2025 10:10

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 09:53

@BonfireLady, you do know that where one thread closes, another one opens, don’t you?

#climbeverymountain

😜

😁

I shall be attempting to finish thread 20 before attempting the imminent thread 21. However, I do admit that I had to skip over about half of 15 and all of 16 and 17. In the analogy of the 3 Peaks Challenge, I will accept that I caught the train up Snowdon 😉

#ClimbAlmostEveryMountain
#AreWeNearlyThereYet?
#MoreMountainsMeanMoreSunlight☀️

anyolddinosaur · 18/02/2025 10:15

HMRC asked me for both my gender (male or female answers only) and how I identified when I was trying to pay a tax bill recently. Maybe it's because I'm so old 😃The male/female may have said assigned at birth though, I dont remember but there was something to make it clear it was not your gender identity. Logged into my account to try and check but it wouldnt show me what they have recorded for me for those questions.

NotAGentleReminder · 18/02/2025 10:18

If the PC of sex is changed to 'gender', there will be no PC in the Equality Act that protects anyone from discrimination on the basis of their sex.

anyolddinosaur · 18/02/2025 10:20

I think the HMRC box had I dont want to answer or disclose or something for GI.

MarieDeGournay · 18/02/2025 10:24

NotAGentleReminder · 18/02/2025 10:18

If the PC of sex is changed to 'gender', there will be no PC in the Equality Act that protects anyone from discrimination on the basis of their sex.

That's what happened in Ireland - they somehow manage to rewrite even existing 'Sex Equality' legislation so it is now about gender not sex, and there is no protected characteristic for sex.
So effectively, women [and men for that matter, sex equality legislation was for both sexes] are unprotected in Irish law as women.

That was one of the reasons why the government unexpectedly lost a referendum about changing the wording in the Constitution that referred to women. Even though it referred to women+family+home etc, at least it kept the word WOMAN in the Constitution, when it had been written out of other official texts.

WandaSiri · 18/02/2025 10:25

Harassedevictee · 18/02/2025 09:59

It’s up to the law makers to define gender - it will be a bun fight but as long as it is distinct to sex let those who believe in it fight it out.

I just do not think it is realistic to legally erase a section of society. You are entitled to your beliefs but they are entitled to theirs.

Removing anyone’s hard won legal rights is not right. Clarifying and drawing a legal divide between sex and gender is an equitable way to move forward.

EDI has, quite rightly, had a very bad time. However, the principles of inclusion and equality/equity are not fundamentally bad. It’s how they have been skewed and weaponised that is the problem.

I have said before Keira Bell is in legal limbo as she has a GRC making her legally male. We need a legal process for detransitioners. How do you write that not using the word gender?

How do you legislate against PB and surgery for children if you don’t use the word gender?

It's not possible to define gender and we didn't need to do it to pass the GRA. What is the point of putting it into law? Not having a definition in law doesn't stop anyone believing they have a gender. But their subjective belief doesn't matter for wider society.

We don't have a definition now, so how would it erase anyone to continue that situation?

What I proposed does not take away the undisputed rights of people who currently have a GRC, ie the rights in the GRA. It just doesn't allow new GRCs or overreach of rights claimed.

The annulment of GRCs could just be the same as the process for granting one - change the name on some documents, get a doctor's letter saying you accept your sex. What is difficult about that?

Re children - just outlaw puberty blockers except for early puberty and outlaw cross-sex hormones for under-18s completely except for patients with a DSD for which cross-sex hormones are the accepted treatment.
Outlaw cosmetic mastectomies, penectomies etc on anyone under 18.

Edited for clarity

Needspaceforlego · 18/02/2025 10:29

No gender treatment should be available on the NHS. It should be treated exactly the same as any eating disorder, where people see their body as wrong, ie anorexic who think they are fat.
No your body isn't wrong, your body is you!

PrettyDamnCosmic · 18/02/2025 10:30

PachacutisBadAuntie · 18/02/2025 07:22

Halfway through the Mr Menno and Sarah Phillimore chat, it's excellent. So many cases.
SP 'they hitch their parasitic wagon onto gay rights'

I am old enough to remember the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) which was a membership organisation of almost exclusively homosexual men who campaigned in the 1970s to have the age of consent removed. They infiltrated many organisations like NCCL (forerunner of Liberty) & infected them with what was presented as the sexual liberation of children rather than 50-year-old men wanting to have sex with five-year-olds. They too hitched their parasitic wagon onto gay rights. I see many parallels.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange

RethinkingLife · 18/02/2025 10:39

Suzanne Moore in Telegraph (17.02) summarising with some error (we won't know tribunal result in July, nor is the conduct meeting going ahead but that was near time to publication etc.):

Why would any woman work for the NHS after this nurse’s experience?
Sandie Peggie’s failure to stop a trans doctor sharing a changing room with her proves the service is no longer a safe place for women

archive version: archive.is/2025.02.18-055800/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/17/woman-work-nhs-nurse-experience/

Sorry about the URL, I've tried multiple ways to fix it. C&P?

NotAGentleReminder · 18/02/2025 10:39

Needspaceforlego · 18/02/2025 10:29

No gender treatment should be available on the NHS. It should be treated exactly the same as any eating disorder, where people see their body as wrong, ie anorexic who think they are fat.
No your body isn't wrong, your body is you!

Absolutely

Twoshoesnewshoes · 18/02/2025 10:40

Skyellaskerry · 17/02/2025 17:43

Does anyone know if all other NHS boards in Scotland have official policies in place that allow “use of the toilets and other facilities in your acquired gender” as you like?

Across the various threads the question around ignoring the provisions in the 1992 health safety regulations has come up. Because the subsequent non HS laws muddle things. If there are any health and safety professionals on here I would be interested to know if you are ever consulted or if you have ever raised in your organisation

I work at RDUH in Devon.
Yes it has the same policy - use wherever you choose to align with your own identity.
I emailed DEI to ask about provision for people with religious needs or trauma which means they can't use a mixed sex space.
No reply, emailed again. no reply.
I called the guardian for support, left a message, no reply
called again, left message, no reply.

I have recently changed post so will pursue again once settled.

NotAGentleReminder · 18/02/2025 10:41

MarieDeGournay · 18/02/2025 10:24

That's what happened in Ireland - they somehow manage to rewrite even existing 'Sex Equality' legislation so it is now about gender not sex, and there is no protected characteristic for sex.
So effectively, women [and men for that matter, sex equality legislation was for both sexes] are unprotected in Irish law as women.

That was one of the reasons why the government unexpectedly lost a referendum about changing the wording in the Constitution that referred to women. Even though it referred to women+family+home etc, at least it kept the word WOMAN in the Constitution, when it had been written out of other official texts.

Thanks, I didn't know this. Been trying to remember Magdalen Bern's quote along the lines of, if you're not allowed to talk about your sex then you can't defend your rights.

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