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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
NotAGentleReminder · 16/02/2025 19:08

Sorry if someone has already posted this
https://archive.is/Nhyps
"Health Secretary Neil Gray was warned in June last year that NHS Fife may have acted illegally in the row over a trans woman doctor's use of a female-only changing room, The Herald on Sunday can reveal."

Greyskybluesky · 16/02/2025 19:15

Interesting reading @NotAGentleReminder thank you

So much buck passing in this case.

Boiledbeetle · 16/02/2025 19:16

UnhappyAndYouKnowIt · 16/02/2025 19:08

Good news

Oh my! It's like when I found out haggis are real!

😍😍😍

anyolddinosaur · 16/02/2025 19:26

Please leave Upton's family out of this. Life is hard enough for them already.

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:26

This case got a mention from Baroness Clare Fox on Free Speech Nation tonight, when talking about free speech, that we're ' supposed' to call Dr Upton a ' woman'.

Greyskybluesky · 16/02/2025 19:33

All these newspapers and commentators suddenly coming out of the woodwork.
It's as if this case plus Trump's EOs on DEI have finally broken the spell and they're not afraid to speak now.
Where were they years ago when feminists were saying this is wrong and getting attacked for it??

INeedAPensieve · 16/02/2025 19:44

Thanks again for this @nauticant you have been brilliant with this.

I can't believe it is onto thread 20 now. I still have to catch up with the last 3.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 16/02/2025 19:48

Fascinating article in The Herald, @nauticant , about SP's lawyer and Neil Gray.
Face/palm.

And a wee shout out to @Boiledbeetle for the brilliant re-working of The Night Before Christmas in the last thread!

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:49

My God this is unbelievable
'This is not in the past. This is happening this week. Her employers are reported to be pressing ahead.

‘Sandie Peggie..is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal’ ( due to her ' misgendering ' Dr U

twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1891210873881952377?s=19

Ariana12 · 16/02/2025 19:51

nauticant · 16/02/2025 15:07

A request to make to people reading the thread. We've seen what a nightmare this has been for Sandie, and what a gruelling and uncertain experience it is to go through an Employment Tribunal. It would be even harder going through it and worrying about how to fund it.

Other women are going through similar experiences and need our support, so at least they're able to focus on the important parts and not worry all the time about funding. One woman going through this is Sarah Holman who is crowdfunding under Harassed and Victimised for supporting Women’s Rights. It's possible she's unaware of the support offered by Mumsnet and it would be great if she could receive some.

Thanks for all your sterling.work. what's the best way of supporting Sarah?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/02/2025 19:51

From the article

The Scottish government has also been spending £100,000 a year on the discredited trans advocacy group Stonewall.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 19:54

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:49

My God this is unbelievable
'This is not in the past. This is happening this week. Her employers are reported to be pressing ahead.

‘Sandie Peggie..is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal’ ( due to her ' misgendering ' Dr U

twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1891210873881952377?s=19

WTAF?! I can't read the full news story to see what on earth is going on.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 19:55

Here is the archive version: archive.ph/XmNMj

mrshoho · 16/02/2025 19:55

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:49

My God this is unbelievable
'This is not in the past. This is happening this week. Her employers are reported to be pressing ahead.

‘Sandie Peggie..is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal’ ( due to her ' misgendering ' Dr U

twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1891210873881952377?s=19

That doesn't make sense. Then again none of it has ever made sense.

Boiledbeetle · 16/02/2025 19:57

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:49

My God this is unbelievable
'This is not in the past. This is happening this week. Her employers are reported to be pressing ahead.

‘Sandie Peggie..is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal’ ( due to her ' misgendering ' Dr U

twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1891210873881952377?s=19

If this is correct then NHS Fife has lost the bloody plot.

rebmacesrevda · 16/02/2025 19:58

Many thanks for the contemporaneous notes articles. Much appreciated :)

OhBuggerandArse · 16/02/2025 19:58

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:49

My God this is unbelievable
'This is not in the past. This is happening this week. Her employers are reported to be pressing ahead.

‘Sandie Peggie..is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal’ ( due to her ' misgendering ' Dr U

twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1891210873881952377?s=19

That is extraordinary behaviour from NHS Fife. Are they completely out of control/their minds?

TinDogTavern · 16/02/2025 19:59

Jesus christ on a tandem, have they never heard the expression "when you're in a hole, stop digging"???????

rebmacesrevda · 16/02/2025 19:59

The incompetence of NHS Fife knows no bounds!

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 19:59

archive version in case the token lapses in the future: https://archive.is/wip/GAzD4

Now, it is fine if people want to chant “trans women are women” outside parliament or call JK Rowling a Terf, but they should surely not receive public money for doing so. Local authorities and health boards also spend large amounts on DEI schemes promoting “trans rights” as we saw last week.
The Sandie Peggie employment tribunal demonstrated just how far gender ideology has captured the entire public sector. A nurse of 30 years’ standing, Peggie was suspended by managers at the Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy because she objected to a man, Dr Beth Upton, who self-identifies as a woman, being present in the changing room when she was dealing with excessive menstrual flow.

PS: ETA xd with Fluffy because distracted by news about the conduct hearing.

ickky · 16/02/2025 20:00

GCITC · 16/02/2025 17:18

I dread to think what number thread we will be at when July comes round!

Little did @nauticant know that she was signing up for a lifetime commitment when she started thread 1. 😂

Thank you @nauticant

Harassedevictee · 16/02/2025 20:00

Several posters have asked questions, IANAL nor have I worked for NHS but I hope this helps.

  1. Did Fife hospital complete the investigation? Yes, but not until December 2024. Based on TT of SPs evidence I did a rough timeline (Thread 1), according to SP the investigation took nearly 12 months. Key dates:
  2. end of 02/24 given a copy of complaint
  3. 12/04/24 letter about investigation interview
  4. 30/08/24 investigation interview
  5. 14/10/24 further investigation interview
  6. 12/24 received investigation report.

2.Is SP back at work? I am happy to be corrected but I think SP returned to work in April 2024. This was when DU moved as part of their rotation to Anaesthetics.

3.Will SP be given Special leave to attend the ET? Again I am happy to be corrected but I believe DU, ED, KS and all Fife Hospital’s witnesses will get paid special leave because they are witnesses for the hospital. SP is claiming against the hospital and as such is highly likely to either have to take annual leave or unpaid special leave.

I know this sounds harsh but the rationale is likely to be that SP is effectively sueing the hospital and tax payer money should not be used to assist her to do this. I would fully expect this to form part of SPs financial loss schedule.

Lark1ane · 16/02/2025 20:00

They really do want Sandie Peggie to shut up and get out of the Health Service don't they? FFS.

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 20:03

This is what Michael Foran has said about these new developments:

Extraordinary threat to sack gender critical nurse exposes flagrant breach of natural justice
By Michael Foran
In an explosive revelation, we have learnt that NHS Fife is holding an internal conduct hearing this week to determine whether or not Sandie Peggie committed alleged acts of harassment that NHS Fife have already argued she is guilty of in open court.

The situation came to a head on Christmas Eve 2023 when Ms Peggie, having experienced a heavy menstrual flood, rushed to the female changing room to find Dr Upton present. At this point, Ms Peggie told Dr Upton of her discomfort, stressing that Upton had no right to use the female changing room <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/XmNMj/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/21/nhs-tries-ban-nurse-calling-trans-doctor-man/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">because he was a man.
Shortly after this, Ms Peggie was suspended pending investigation into allegations of bullying and harassment against Dr Upton. Months later, Ms Peggie was informed that she was also being investigated for alleged incidents of threats to patient safety raised by Dr Upton. Ms Peggie denies these allegations and has argued that Dr Upton fabricated them to bolster the complaint about her.

Ms Peggie is suing Dr Upton for harassment and NHS Fife for unlawfully <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/XmNMj/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/11/i-dont-have-to-tell-patients-im-trans-doctor-nhs-row/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">allowing Dr Upton to use the female changing room and for unlawfully discriminating against her in the course of the misconduct investigation.

It has now been revealed that NHS Fife is pushing forward with its internal disciplinary process. It cannot be underestimated how shocking this is from a legal perspective. If there is an ongoing disciplinary process, it would be a flagrant breach of natural justice and of Ms Peggie’s right to procedural fairness for NHS Fife to pre-judge that process. Yet despite officially having come to no conclusion as to allegations that Ms Peggie harassed Dr Upton, this is exactly what counsel for NHS Fife is arguing in defence of the lawsuit that Ms Peggie has brought.

Ms Peggie was already suing NHS Fife for, among other things, how the beginning of this internal investigation played out, as well as the significant delay leading to the process remaining unfinished more than a year on. It was entirely open for NHS Fife to defend against the claims brought by Ms Peggie without committing to the position that she is guilty of the very thing yet to be determined.
Prejudging a disciplinary process

But Jane Russell, counsel for both NHS Fife and Dr Upton, has argued both in written submissions and in open court that “the inconvenient truth here is that the only real harassment that has occurred in this case was perpetrated by (Ms Peggie) against (Dr Upton)”. That is the official legal position of NHS Fife, prejudging an ongoing disciplinary process.

It is unclear at this stage how this will all play out, but the allegations made by Dr Upton against Ms Peggie are serious. The allegation that Ms Peggie was so bigoted against Dr Upton that she walked out on vulnerable patients in need of care, if determined to be true, could result in Ms Peggie being fired, or even struck off the nursing register. The idea that NHS Fife could argue in open court that Ms Peggie is guilty of this, before completing the internal process, is extraordinary. This was not necessary to defend against the lawsuit that Ms Peggie brought.
Given the choice to frame the legal defence in this way, it is no surprise that NHS Fife now faces further litigation from Ms Peggie arising from what appears to be a clearly unlawful breach of the legal rules around natural justice and procedural fairness. The choice to defend the initial litigation by prejudging an ongoing disciplinary process is staggering

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