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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

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OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 18/02/2025 10:45

Twoshoesnewshoes · 18/02/2025 10:40

I work at RDUH in Devon.
Yes it has the same policy - use wherever you choose to align with your own identity.
I emailed DEI to ask about provision for people with religious needs or trauma which means they can't use a mixed sex space.
No reply, emailed again. no reply.
I called the guardian for support, left a message, no reply
called again, left message, no reply.

I have recently changed post so will pursue again once settled.

It seems common. I posted a link to a What Do They Know? search upthread. It returns the hospitals that have these policies.

DeanElderberry · 18/02/2025 10:48

PrettyDamnCosmic · 18/02/2025 10:30

I am old enough to remember the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) which was a membership organisation of almost exclusively homosexual men who campaigned in the 1970s to have the age of consent removed. They infiltrated many organisations like NCCL (forerunner of Liberty) & infected them with what was presented as the sexual liberation of children rather than 50-year-old men wanting to have sex with five-year-olds. They too hitched their parasitic wagon onto gay rights. I see many parallels.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange

Edited

There's a thread about it.

Not irrelevant to the genderist beliefs and tactics that underpin Upton's and Fife NHS's actions

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5246429-5246429-bbc-radio-4-series-this-week-about-pie-in-dark-corners

PachacutisBadAuntie · 18/02/2025 10:53

@PrettyDamnCosmic I've been listening to the BBC series about PIE that @DeanElderberry mentioned above, it's very very frightening along with many other things.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0027k0b

BonfireLady · 18/02/2025 10:56

Random additional comment before I head back to page 6. It has just popped up in my notifications that someone has liked this post I wrote in a thread that I started. Now this really is a Delorian moment... If anyone fancies hopping in for a peep, here you go!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4800211-continuously-willing-to-discuss-in-good-faith-part-3

This was part 3 of a series of discussions. I was a keen learner, with my newly expanded mind on all things gender....

Edited to add: I can't remember for sure but this might have been the thread where I got a pasting for talking to a TW too enthusiastically. My reflection on this remains as it did at the end of that particular journey: I'm glad I engaged in the conversation (the TW was exploring third spaces so as not to use women's toilets and changing rooms), I agreed that some of my enthusiasm at the direct conversation with the TW could have been tempered (but I'm equally enthusiastic with others if the topic is interesting and helpful), I didn't agree that I was responsible for this TW traipsing across other threads (I don't own the internet). Equally, that could be a different thread. I've been on plenty of learning journeys. FWIW I would still engage in good faith people who believe that we all have a gender identity. I would also still disengage if it turned grim, like it did on that particular occasion 🤮

RovingPublicEnquiry · 18/02/2025 11:03

Finally signed up after years of lurking. I wanted to thank @nauticant for maintaining this marathon string of threads and @ickky for bringing over the TTs in real time, and all those at TT for doing what you do. And, of course, SANDIE!

I have stayed up until 5 am every night for the last week and a half and I've managed to read every post on all 20 (now 21!) threads (I'm across the pond and it's really hard to close the laptop and go to bed when the threads start heating up around 2 am my time!). I just wanted to say I am so grateful for every one of you who post here. You help me feel sane in this swirling vortex of deranged gaslighting we seem to be living in.

To me, one of the most insane pieces in all this is how we are told that "if you see someone's sex you are a bigot" (as a PP put it very succinctly many threads ago). Being able to tell, almost immediately, who we can and cannot reproduce with is one of our most fundamental instinctual abilities, honed by millions of years of evolution and vital to the survival of our species. Declaring that this is bigoted is like saying being thirsty is bigoted. Or squinting at a bright light. We cannot turn this ability off, any more than we could turn off our ability to recognize the difference between hot and cold.

Pretty much all sexually reproducing animals on the planet have evolved ways to tell who they can and can't mate with, from chemical signals in dung beetles to songs in blue whales. Imagine if someone decided, all of a sudden, that female dung beetles were evil bigots for recognizing the chemical signatures of males. It would be nonsensical.

This movement will fail because it is demanding we somehow delete an involuntary instinct. Correctly sexing people is not a cultural behavior or a learned prejudice. It is an ingrained evolutionary response to visual, auditory, and olfactory inputs.

And, of course, this response is stronger in women than men because we have had two evolutionary pressures acting on us. In addition to “can I mate with it?” we have “can it rape and kill me?” Just like NC was saying in the beginning of her cross examination of DU, women are always instinctively recognizing whether the people around us are male or female to assess the level of threat. Asking people, and especially women, to stop noticing sex is like asking us to stop noticing the effects of gravity. It’s physically impossible. You can't make an evolutionarily necessary trait shared by most sexually reproducing species on Earth a crime.

This means the best anyone can ever do, including the true believers, is engage in the immersive role play and try really hard to suppress our natural reactions to our completely involuntary sexing of those around us (like using correct sex pronouns or feeling uncomfortable in the changing room when a male walks in). It's completely bonkers and not sustainable.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I know I'm preaching to the choir here! I mainly just wanted to chime in and say hello and thank you to all you amazing Mumsnetters! I'm sorry it took me so long to register! Now I really must get to bed as it's 3 am and I need an early night. :)

CheekySnake · 18/02/2025 11:04

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 09:38

Thank you!! And see, that is my thinking. It’s a nasty side-effect of how ubiquitous VAW is, because unless it’s something horrific, like the Pellicot case, or someone famous, it doesn’t get reported. So it’s easy to forget it is happening all the time.

But violence against trans-identified people is rare, so it does get reported, which pushes it up in people’s minds and makes them think it is the one that is ubiquitous.

I also realise that recent statistics will probably be utterly muddied by incorrect collection of sex information.

The other statistic that's important here though is male on male v male on female violence. Although mvawg gets talked about a lot, men make up the vast majority of victims. Men kill more men than women.

So if we take the current problem of teen knife crime, more boys than girls have died. Murders of boys with a trans identity are extremely low, it's true, but then there are v v few teen boys with a trans identity in the first place. The case you mentioned got a lot of press because it was clickbait and because a girl was involved, which is in itself unusual. The press love violent women.

The biggest single risk factor for being murdered (or committing murder) is being male.

RovingPublicEnquiry · 18/02/2025 11:05

Sorry, not sure how to @ people properly. This is the first forum I've ever posted on and I don't do social media, so I'm clueless about such things.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:10

@RovingPublicEnquiry - you may have finally made it to bed now (🤞) but when you wake up I want you to know that this:

And, of course, this response is stronger in women than men because we have had two evolutionary pressures acting on us. In addition to “can I mate with it?” we have “can it rape and kill me?” Just like NC was saying in the beginning of her cross examination of DU, women are always instinctively recognizing whether the people around us are male or female to assess the level of threat. Asking people, and especially women, to stop noticing sex is like asking us to stop noticing the effects of gravity. It’s physically impossible. You can't make an evolutionarily necessary trait shared by most sexually reproducing species on Earth a crime.

is I think why this case is peaking a lot of ordinary women who haven’t given this issue much thought.

thenosiesttermagant · 18/02/2025 11:15

Chrysanthemum5 · 18/02/2025 07:12

I wish it were a joke @Justasmallgless and @SinnerBoy but I asked in a large meeting about why we collected data on gender rather than sex and used that as the basis for decision making (eg our toilets are all single gender) and the answer from our HR EDI lead was that currently the protected characteristic was sex but they expected the law to change it to gender. So they felt it was ok to continue ignoring their legal obligations to collect data on sex

The other reason I've been given is that HMRC insists organisations use gender rather than sex so it's easier to make gender the term we use for everything

It's unbelievable.

It's a bit like saying you murdered your annoying sibling but you expect the law to catch up with becoming a lawless apocalypse landscape in the next 5 years, so it's fine.

I'm hoping it will be a FAFO scenario. Ultimately if institutions behave as if the law doesn't matter, and it's allowed, it makes the courts redundant so hopefully judges will crack down hard or they can kiss their profession goodbye.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:16

CheekySnake · 18/02/2025 11:04

The other statistic that's important here though is male on male v male on female violence. Although mvawg gets talked about a lot, men make up the vast majority of victims. Men kill more men than women.

So if we take the current problem of teen knife crime, more boys than girls have died. Murders of boys with a trans identity are extremely low, it's true, but then there are v v few teen boys with a trans identity in the first place. The case you mentioned got a lot of press because it was clickbait and because a girl was involved, which is in itself unusual. The press love violent women.

The biggest single risk factor for being murdered (or committing murder) is being male.

Edited

It’s true - though this one is tricky to work with in bog standard school gate / coffee group / etc discussions because when you talk about how many women are assaulted, then you get a certain type of man saying “well what about men, they get assaulted too!” Of course in both cases the assault is perpetrated by men, so…

My desire for the violence against trans-identified people stats was to counter the thought-terminating cliche “they are the most attacked and vulnerable group of people.” But yes, if we’re looking at overall league tables, men are probably the worst off.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:18

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:16

It’s true - though this one is tricky to work with in bog standard school gate / coffee group / etc discussions because when you talk about how many women are assaulted, then you get a certain type of man saying “well what about men, they get assaulted too!” Of course in both cases the assault is perpetrated by men, so…

My desire for the violence against trans-identified people stats was to counter the thought-terminating cliche “they are the most attacked and vulnerable group of people.” But yes, if we’re looking at overall league tables, men are probably the worst off.

Can’t figure out how to edit - that should say “men are definitely worst off”…

thenosiesttermagant · 18/02/2025 11:23

RovingPublicEnquiry · 18/02/2025 11:03

Finally signed up after years of lurking. I wanted to thank @nauticant for maintaining this marathon string of threads and @ickky for bringing over the TTs in real time, and all those at TT for doing what you do. And, of course, SANDIE!

I have stayed up until 5 am every night for the last week and a half and I've managed to read every post on all 20 (now 21!) threads (I'm across the pond and it's really hard to close the laptop and go to bed when the threads start heating up around 2 am my time!). I just wanted to say I am so grateful for every one of you who post here. You help me feel sane in this swirling vortex of deranged gaslighting we seem to be living in.

To me, one of the most insane pieces in all this is how we are told that "if you see someone's sex you are a bigot" (as a PP put it very succinctly many threads ago). Being able to tell, almost immediately, who we can and cannot reproduce with is one of our most fundamental instinctual abilities, honed by millions of years of evolution and vital to the survival of our species. Declaring that this is bigoted is like saying being thirsty is bigoted. Or squinting at a bright light. We cannot turn this ability off, any more than we could turn off our ability to recognize the difference between hot and cold.

Pretty much all sexually reproducing animals on the planet have evolved ways to tell who they can and can't mate with, from chemical signals in dung beetles to songs in blue whales. Imagine if someone decided, all of a sudden, that female dung beetles were evil bigots for recognizing the chemical signatures of males. It would be nonsensical.

This movement will fail because it is demanding we somehow delete an involuntary instinct. Correctly sexing people is not a cultural behavior or a learned prejudice. It is an ingrained evolutionary response to visual, auditory, and olfactory inputs.

And, of course, this response is stronger in women than men because we have had two evolutionary pressures acting on us. In addition to “can I mate with it?” we have “can it rape and kill me?” Just like NC was saying in the beginning of her cross examination of DU, women are always instinctively recognizing whether the people around us are male or female to assess the level of threat. Asking people, and especially women, to stop noticing sex is like asking us to stop noticing the effects of gravity. It’s physically impossible. You can't make an evolutionarily necessary trait shared by most sexually reproducing species on Earth a crime.

This means the best anyone can ever do, including the true believers, is engage in the immersive role play and try really hard to suppress our natural reactions to our completely involuntary sexing of those around us (like using correct sex pronouns or feeling uncomfortable in the changing room when a male walks in). It's completely bonkers and not sustainable.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I know I'm preaching to the choir here! I mainly just wanted to chime in and say hello and thank you to all you amazing Mumsnetters! I'm sorry it took me so long to register! Now I really must get to bed as it's 3 am and I need an early night. :)

Excellent post and username!

Of course the fact that it's an inbuilt instinct, honed by evolution, and more so in females, is partially why it's been targeted. Suppression and control of women is centuries old, and this is simply the 'progressive' (hollow laugh) response to woman's rights in western countries. A way to appear to be morally superior whilst doing something the old as the hills and Taliban adjacent - taking away women's rights and their right to free speech. Same thing, different (slightly less obvious) method.

If you can coercively control someone to the point of ignoring sex you can make them do anything. For abusers who get off on humiliating and controlling it's perfect. Even more so that institutions are captured. Transactivism has turned progressive movements on their head and back into a way to strip women of human rights.

CheekySnake · 18/02/2025 11:29

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:16

It’s true - though this one is tricky to work with in bog standard school gate / coffee group / etc discussions because when you talk about how many women are assaulted, then you get a certain type of man saying “well what about men, they get assaulted too!” Of course in both cases the assault is perpetrated by men, so…

My desire for the violence against trans-identified people stats was to counter the thought-terminating cliche “they are the most attacked and vulnerable group of people.” But yes, if we’re looking at overall league tables, men are probably the worst off.

@TwoLoonsAndASprout

I find it useful to point out that there are 85k men in prison and around 4.5k women

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:42

CheekySnake · 18/02/2025 11:29

@TwoLoonsAndASprout

I find it useful to point out that there are 85k men in prison and around 4.5k women

And aren’t most women who are in prison there for non-violent crimes?

Datun · 18/02/2025 11:47

RovingPublicEnquiry · 18/02/2025 11:03

Finally signed up after years of lurking. I wanted to thank @nauticant for maintaining this marathon string of threads and @ickky for bringing over the TTs in real time, and all those at TT for doing what you do. And, of course, SANDIE!

I have stayed up until 5 am every night for the last week and a half and I've managed to read every post on all 20 (now 21!) threads (I'm across the pond and it's really hard to close the laptop and go to bed when the threads start heating up around 2 am my time!). I just wanted to say I am so grateful for every one of you who post here. You help me feel sane in this swirling vortex of deranged gaslighting we seem to be living in.

To me, one of the most insane pieces in all this is how we are told that "if you see someone's sex you are a bigot" (as a PP put it very succinctly many threads ago). Being able to tell, almost immediately, who we can and cannot reproduce with is one of our most fundamental instinctual abilities, honed by millions of years of evolution and vital to the survival of our species. Declaring that this is bigoted is like saying being thirsty is bigoted. Or squinting at a bright light. We cannot turn this ability off, any more than we could turn off our ability to recognize the difference between hot and cold.

Pretty much all sexually reproducing animals on the planet have evolved ways to tell who they can and can't mate with, from chemical signals in dung beetles to songs in blue whales. Imagine if someone decided, all of a sudden, that female dung beetles were evil bigots for recognizing the chemical signatures of males. It would be nonsensical.

This movement will fail because it is demanding we somehow delete an involuntary instinct. Correctly sexing people is not a cultural behavior or a learned prejudice. It is an ingrained evolutionary response to visual, auditory, and olfactory inputs.

And, of course, this response is stronger in women than men because we have had two evolutionary pressures acting on us. In addition to “can I mate with it?” we have “can it rape and kill me?” Just like NC was saying in the beginning of her cross examination of DU, women are always instinctively recognizing whether the people around us are male or female to assess the level of threat. Asking people, and especially women, to stop noticing sex is like asking us to stop noticing the effects of gravity. It’s physically impossible. You can't make an evolutionarily necessary trait shared by most sexually reproducing species on Earth a crime.

This means the best anyone can ever do, including the true believers, is engage in the immersive role play and try really hard to suppress our natural reactions to our completely involuntary sexing of those around us (like using correct sex pronouns or feeling uncomfortable in the changing room when a male walks in). It's completely bonkers and not sustainable.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I know I'm preaching to the choir here! I mainly just wanted to chime in and say hello and thank you to all you amazing Mumsnetters! I'm sorry it took me so long to register! Now I really must get to bed as it's 3 am and I need an early night. :)

Yes, when I first was on Mumsnet years ago, there were a lot of discussions about violence against women, and what women do to avoid it.

Obviously, being a woman, this was all fairly familiar, but I was suddenly struck quite forcefully, what it must be like to not think that way.

DH quite likes walking the dog at dusk, and we have woods nearby, which they both like! And I asked him does it never occur you not to walk in the woods when it's dark?

He genuinely thought I was asking because I was suddenly admitting to being afraid of the dark.

It took me quite a few minutes to convince him that it being dark is not the reason, hence why I was fine walking along with him - in the dark.

I suddenly had a lightbulb moment of what it must feel like to just view walking the dog in the woods at night purely as something really rather ethereal, interesting, 'naturey', and without a second thought.

I had a real pang of envy.

And yes I know men are also victims of other men, but that doesn't seem to make them clasp their keys in their fist across an empty car park, for some reason.

edited to add my actual point! Which was when Upton said he knew nothing about how it would feel flooding during menstruation, or about menstruation in general, there's not a woman listening who didn't already know it.

These men know fuck all about being women, and have no idea why we want to be private when taking our clothes off. The ignorance and entitlement comes off them in waves.

thenosiesttermagant · 18/02/2025 11:49

And yes I know men are also victims of other men, but that doesn't seem to make them clasp their keys in their fist across an empty car park, for some reason.

I think that's because they're not attacked purely for the sex they are, whereas women are. Yes they're more at risk overall of violence but I'm guessing if you look into those stats it's men in crowded situations, in pubs, not lone men walking dogs. Whereas there's a type of male predator that seeks out women alone.

Datun · 18/02/2025 11:51

thenosiesttermagant · 18/02/2025 11:49

And yes I know men are also victims of other men, but that doesn't seem to make them clasp their keys in their fist across an empty car park, for some reason.

I think that's because they're not attacked purely for the sex they are, whereas women are. Yes they're more at risk overall of violence but I'm guessing if you look into those stats it's men in crowded situations, in pubs, not lone men walking dogs. Whereas there's a type of male predator that seeks out women alone.

Yes, good point

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/02/2025 11:56

thenosiesttermagant · 18/02/2025 11:23

Excellent post and username!

Of course the fact that it's an inbuilt instinct, honed by evolution, and more so in females, is partially why it's been targeted. Suppression and control of women is centuries old, and this is simply the 'progressive' (hollow laugh) response to woman's rights in western countries. A way to appear to be morally superior whilst doing something the old as the hills and Taliban adjacent - taking away women's rights and their right to free speech. Same thing, different (slightly less obvious) method.

If you can coercively control someone to the point of ignoring sex you can make them do anything. For abusers who get off on humiliating and controlling it's perfect. Even more so that institutions are captured. Transactivism has turned progressive movements on their head and back into a way to strip women of human rights.

Wasn't it an excellent post? It's great to see so many women speaking out who've instinctively spotted the control and intimidation aimed at Sandie. When the NHS denies the reality of women's bodies, health, language and safety in favour of a group of men, then the NHS is unable to treat women with the safety and dignity needed.
Even the continued shambles of dangerous maternity care is not considered serious enough to stop the useful idiot brigade twisting facts and language to the extent that women are no longer afforded the dignity of recognition as pregnant women and mothers in so many Trusts. Instead staff are coerced to pretend that men can give birth, breastfeed (bleurgh) etc.

It's shameful to know that the NHS has enabled the abusers to lead these conversations. Time for change

CheekySnake · 18/02/2025 12:18

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:42

And aren’t most women who are in prison there for non-violent crimes?

Yep

CheekySnake · 18/02/2025 12:24

Datun · 18/02/2025 11:47

Yes, when I first was on Mumsnet years ago, there were a lot of discussions about violence against women, and what women do to avoid it.

Obviously, being a woman, this was all fairly familiar, but I was suddenly struck quite forcefully, what it must be like to not think that way.

DH quite likes walking the dog at dusk, and we have woods nearby, which they both like! And I asked him does it never occur you not to walk in the woods when it's dark?

He genuinely thought I was asking because I was suddenly admitting to being afraid of the dark.

It took me quite a few minutes to convince him that it being dark is not the reason, hence why I was fine walking along with him - in the dark.

I suddenly had a lightbulb moment of what it must feel like to just view walking the dog in the woods at night purely as something really rather ethereal, interesting, 'naturey', and without a second thought.

I had a real pang of envy.

And yes I know men are also victims of other men, but that doesn't seem to make them clasp their keys in their fist across an empty car park, for some reason.

edited to add my actual point! Which was when Upton said he knew nothing about how it would feel flooding during menstruation, or about menstruation in general, there's not a woman listening who didn't already know it.

These men know fuck all about being women, and have no idea why we want to be private when taking our clothes off. The ignorance and entitlement comes off them in waves.

Edited

And didn't he sneer when he said 'I'm not in the habit of knowing about my colleague's menstrual cycles' (or something like that, I can't remember the exact wording). I do remember thinking that he obviously thought that made him look clever whilst NC was being crass by talking about such base bodily functions, only NC carried on like she hadn't noticed. Every single woman in that room knew what NC was talking about, and knew why SP had challenged him on that particular day, why it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/02/2025 12:32

@Harassedevictee asked how it would be possible to ban puberty blockers and gender surgery in children without a legal definition of gender.

Easy. No off label use of puberty blockers. No cosmetic surgery on the primary or secondary sex characteristics of children.

The word gender isn't needed. They have been permitted without a legal definition, they can be stopped without one.

19kgofchocolate · 18/02/2025 12:33

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2025 20:44

£36,000 ❤

Whilst this is great support, and I myself donated to it. SP subsequently came out and said she was donating it all to charity.
if I were donating now with that knowledge, I’d probably donate it to one of the other women fighting similar cases, as they need it for their legal fees. SPs fees are being paid by an anonymous backer (with deep deep pockets)

fanOfBen · 18/02/2025 12:41

19kgofchocolate · 18/02/2025 12:33

Whilst this is great support, and I myself donated to it. SP subsequently came out and said she was donating it all to charity.
if I were donating now with that knowledge, I’d probably donate it to one of the other women fighting similar cases, as they need it for their legal fees. SPs fees are being paid by an anonymous backer (with deep deep pockets)

Yes - if donating to charity it makes sense to choose the charity yourself. Sex Matters is a charity now, for anyone who didn't know!

Scout2016 · 18/02/2025 12:41

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/02/2025 11:42

And aren’t most women who are in prison there for non-violent crimes?

Yes, and a terrifying number have suffered head injuries, usually as a result of male violence. A numvhave also vern held "for their own safety" when there was no where else to send them but detox or MH services would have been better.

@Merrymouse in the FWS case the judges asked a few of (I thought) insightful questions about what women lose when they pretend to be men, including around pregnancy rights. Worth a read.

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