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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
ickky · 16/02/2025 20:03

It is quite amazing to see all the USAID money that has paid for the astroturfing.

It is not an organic ideology.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/02/2025 20:05

Astroterfing - is that defending space based women's rights?

(edit spelling)

OhBuggerandArse · 16/02/2025 20:06

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/02/2025 20:05

Astroterfing - is that defending space based women's rights?

(edit spelling)

Edited

.

Szygy · 16/02/2025 20:08

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 19:55

Here is the archive version: archive.ph/XmNMj

This is an absolute outrage. I’m appalled, even after everything that’s happened over the past couple of weeks. WTAF are they THINKING?

BecauseRonald · 16/02/2025 20:08

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/16/nurse-challenged-trans-nhs-doctor-threatened-with-sack-fife/

Am I reading this right? Sandie has been called to a meeting next week where she could be fired for misconduct?

WTF

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 20:08

From the Telegraph:

Following an internal investigation, separate to ongoing employment tribunal proceedings, a NHS Fife panel will also consider two allegations that Ms Peggie compromised patient safety by refusing to work effectively with Dr Upton.
What was said in the changing room is disputed by Ms Peggie, who accepts calling Dr Upton a male but denies claims of “cornering” or “haranguing” her physically larger colleague.
Her legal team has accused Dr Upton of fabricating the two occasions in which she is accused of jeopardising patient safety, which were not made until months after they were said to have occurred. Ms Peggie insists they did not happen.
Experts told The Telegraph that the move from NHS Fife to push ahead with possible dismissal was “extraordinary” given that Jane Russell, the lawyer representing the health board and Dr Upton, had publicly accused the nurse of harassment and bullying towards Dr Upton in tribunal proceedings.
It is claimed that this pre-judged the outcome of the health board’s own investigation process, and would hand Ms Peggie strong legal grounds to challenge the outcome and any sanction.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/16/nurse-challenged-trans-nhs-doctor-threatened-with-sack-fife/

archive version: https://archive.is/XmNMj

Alltheprettyseahorses · 16/02/2025 20:10

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 19:49

My God this is unbelievable
'This is not in the past. This is happening this week. Her employers are reported to be pressing ahead.

‘Sandie Peggie..is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal’ ( due to her ' misgendering ' Dr U

twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1891210873881952377?s=19

Wow. I am gobsmacked. Not one of the NHS Fife board can stay in their job now.

rebmacesrevda · 16/02/2025 20:10

I'm wondering when NHS Fife put the letter in the post to Sandie. NHS have a penchant for 2nd class post, but I hope they made the exception for this one.

BecauseRonald · 16/02/2025 20:10

Thanks for the archived version @szygy

Doubling down it is I guess

delvar · 16/02/2025 20:11

Another grateful lurker in awe of your contributions and updates.

To say my jaw dropped open re Fife proceeding with the disciplinary process i.e. next Friday's summons to Ms. Peggie. WTAF.

Anyway, as a complete amateur and obviously missing something, why is SP being disciplined for misgendering, when at the Tribunal her barrister, and her side were given the green light to call DU a man. Is that not misgendering or what nuance am I missing.

I am sure everyone on this thread is somewhat shocked at the latest apparent development. I sure am.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 16/02/2025 20:11

This is so bizarre, surely NHS Fife would have gotten legal advice about what a bad idea this is?
It seems like, as has been alleged on here, that someone in that hospital wants to get rid of her, and will do whatever it takes.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 20:11

Despite the fact that being a woman just 'is', the reality is they are Cassandra and not believed and they aren't valued.

Therefore a man never has to justify nor explain nor asset himself. That is his privilege.

But a woman has to always explain and demonstrate and go beyond rationality into the land of not just the irrefutable and undeniable but also into the unignorable.

And that is where the concept of womanhood lies, quite apart from the reality of womanhood.

Elite women are told they should 'just try a bit hard' - when men are in sports and well within male elite ability range.
Mothers and sisters are told they aren't kind enough when they don't sacrifice their entire identity and their entire history to a male child.
Rape victims are told they aren't considerate and enough of a victim when they object to males in their presence in a crisis setting. The males are always more deserving of kindness and assistance.
Women who demonstrate and highlight a safety risk using evidence are told they arent professional enough, are biased and don't understand the subject enough even if they are much more highly qualified and experienced than a male saying it. They are told it's not admissable evidence and flimsy clearly biased material which is fundamentally flawed in methodology should be included despite being so unbelievably useless it's not fit for anything more than bog roll.
Women who complain publicly are told they should be killed or raped because their views are so abhorrent because they are truthful, whilst those saying it are lauded as brave and courageous behind their masks.

The modern witch hunt and the modern Cassandras are alive and well and living in places like St Helens, Sheffield, Fife and Bridlington. Which of course makes them even more easy to ignore as their postcode isn't prestigious enough and they don't have a second rate degree and a beard. God damn those pesky and gobby northerners and their history of challenging those in power and decision making.

Their silence is read as complicity rather than being read as a cold hard lack of support. Because the default is always in favour of men and never for the invisible women.

The invisible women who should be given voice by equality champions. Except those equality champions have no understanding and clue of inequality because their experience of it, is only getting a second hand car from mummy and daddy rather than a brand new one. Life sucks doesn't it?

Meanwhile in the real world, where women are old enough to have had kids and had their eyes opened by the experience of really being shafted (literally and metaphorically) by selfish and abusive men, we see it all for what it is.

We are the Cassandras.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/02/2025 20:13

Unless this is damage limitation?

We find the allegations of putting patients at risk unproven, there is no evidence of it?

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 20:14

Alltheprettyseahorses · 16/02/2025 20:10

Wow. I am gobsmacked. Not one of the NHS Fife board can stay in their job now.

@prh47bridge or other legal commentators, is this the sort of manoeuvre that might lead to an attempt to add the board (or whomever decided to move ahead with this) as R4?

If this is a pre-emptive strike, in line with SlackJawed's thoughts, it's astonishing and fraught with other possibilities.

Mollyollydolly · 16/02/2025 20:16

I can't get my head around this. Have they got a death wish?

kiterunning · 16/02/2025 20:16

I wonder how many new posters have registered on MN since this tribunal.
Welcome to all!

Heggettypeg · 16/02/2025 20:16

This is a witch-hunt.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 20:17

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 20:08

From the Telegraph:

Following an internal investigation, separate to ongoing employment tribunal proceedings, a NHS Fife panel will also consider two allegations that Ms Peggie compromised patient safety by refusing to work effectively with Dr Upton.
What was said in the changing room is disputed by Ms Peggie, who accepts calling Dr Upton a male but denies claims of “cornering” or “haranguing” her physically larger colleague.
Her legal team has accused Dr Upton of fabricating the two occasions in which she is accused of jeopardising patient safety, which were not made until months after they were said to have occurred. Ms Peggie insists they did not happen.
Experts told The Telegraph that the move from NHS Fife to push ahead with possible dismissal was “extraordinary” given that Jane Russell, the lawyer representing the health board and Dr Upton, had publicly accused the nurse of harassment and bullying towards Dr Upton in tribunal proceedings.
It is claimed that this pre-judged the outcome of the health board’s own investigation process, and would hand Ms Peggie strong legal grounds to challenge the outcome and any sanction.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/16/nurse-challenged-trans-nhs-doctor-threatened-with-sack-fife/

archive version: https://archive.is/XmNMj

Edited

Babs is singing again.

If you didn't know Dr Upton was male, then Fife NHS would like you to know.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20
Appalonia · 16/02/2025 20:18

It's an appalling development. WTF are they thinking??

delvar · 16/02/2025 20:18

Would Naomi C have any involvement in challenging the disciplinary meeting due to it happening mid tribunal? If not, is SP expected to be allowed other legal representation and is that going to be a conflict of interest somewhere along the line. I dunno, and may not have expressed myself well either.

Quite obviously I am not a lawyer, but IAB (baffled).

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 20:19

I can't think the judge will look very favourably on this?

Lark1ane · 16/02/2025 20:20

Fife employees and Upton couldn't point to the specific mistreatment of patients these last few weeks. Upton developed selective amnesia when pressed about it.

Fife allowed a man into the women's changing room, when they are responsible for providing a dedicated space to their female staff.
If they go ahead and sack her for misconduct it will potentially be an unfair dismissal, given also the fact that they have messed up their Investigation and Disciplinary processes.

They just don't seem to give a shit. They have probably decided they aren't going to win the Tribunal so they want her out now.

No misconduct hearing for Upton then?

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 20:21

Appalonia · 16/02/2025 20:18

It's an appalling development. WTF are they thinking??

She and her team were not kind at the tribunal.

NC dared to use the words 'coercive' and 'controlling'.

Therefore Sandy must be put in her place and her right to believe in sex not gender and not submit to pronouns must be punished.

Do you think HR and legal have been involved this time?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 16/02/2025 20:22

BecauseRonald · 16/02/2025 20:08

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/16/nurse-challenged-trans-nhs-doctor-threatened-with-sack-fife/

Am I reading this right? Sandie has been called to a meeting next week where she could be fired for misconduct?

WTF

What. The. Fuck.

How in the hell could they think this is a reasonable step to take with the ongoing tribunal?!?!! 🙈🙈🙈

Projectme · 16/02/2025 20:23

I'm just speechless 😶

Can NHS Fife actually do this; during the middle of the ET? It just isn't right!

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