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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

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32
CarefulN0w · 16/02/2025 15:46

I see that @BonfireLady has found the "Elephant in the Room" article about people flying in from Malaga for knotty. I also found it on Glinner's substack. It was that article that helped my DH to get it. It puts so much in context, and makes it very clear this isn't a harmless bit of fun.

Does anyone know if Barracker's article about pronouns being like rohypnol is still available anywhere? it's another must read.

Lark1ane · 16/02/2025 15:49

Reporting the pesky Scottish Daily Express to the police for telling the truth?
Oooh how scary.
I think those most excellent journalists deserve a crate of Tunnocks each.

CriticalCondition · 16/02/2025 15:51

Here you go.

'Pronouns are Rohypnol '

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

nocoolnamesleft · 16/02/2025 15:52

Too cold yet for literally gardening, so a bit of metaphorical carrot planting scratches the itch. Can I add myself to the voices thanking you wonderful lot. I used to Be Kind, before it was even fashionable. And when trans took off I initially assumed it was like the traditional traumatised unassuming transsexuals. Then I started to see that it wasn't. That children, vulnerable children, gay, autistic, and traumatised children were declaring trans in droves. Cross dressers were being declared women. And I knew something was going horribly wrong, but any attempt to talk about it. And then I found you lovely lot of vicious vipers, and truly the scales fell from my eyes. I have learned so much. And in my own little way, in as far as I can without jeopardising my career, have started to make a difference.

Thank you,

Twoshoesnewshoes · 16/02/2025 15:57

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles that song is absolute genius

PronounssheRa · 16/02/2025 16:00

Hoardasurass · 16/02/2025 15:33

I haven't caught up on the last thread yet so don't know if this has been posted yet but the express has been reported to the police over calling Dr Upton a man and using his real name

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

This is insane, but keeps that light shining on just how far this absolute nonsense has gone.

PonyPatter44 · 16/02/2025 16:10

@KnottyAuty , "forensic settings" would be prisons, secure MH wards, etc.

CarefulN0w · 16/02/2025 16:12

CriticalCondition · 16/02/2025 15:51

Here you go.

'Pronouns are Rohypnol '

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Edited

Thank you. It's such a well written piece isn't it?

myplace · 16/02/2025 16:13

I can talk about this stuff with just a few people. Face to face only. Just a little. Many of them get bored and assume it will all be alright in the end. It isn’t that they disagree, they just assume something so transparently ridiculous will be resolved sensibly.

I can’t say anything publicly because I have family and friends who cannot be challenged as the relationship is so fragile, and friends who are so rainbow cheerleader in support of their friends’ autistic children who have attempted to resolve their struggles by transitioning that I would have no impact other than hurt. I say what I can when I can.

To be in a room - this room- where we can speak more or less freely, feels like taking your bra and heels off after a long day of playing dress up.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/02/2025 16:22

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 15:30

nauticant · Today 15:09

MN hasn't felt able to give us a complete free expression on these issues but what it has provided has been of immense value.

That’s totally fair. I’m new, I overstepped - happy to take the L so as to preserve the value these boards provide.

These have been wonderful threads. Women finally being allowed to speak with minimum censorship.

It's often said that no woman anywhere in the world campaigned for men to be present when we're undressed, sleeping or otherwise vulnerable - let alone for our children to be gaslit that their bodies are flawed but can be cured with a sex change. This - as Upton has demonstrated - is a male dominated movement. It's been enabled by intimidation, silencing, coercive control and on occasions, beating women into submission.

This case has proved to be a game changer in showcasing to the world precisely what is being demanded of women and girls by male transactivists.

CoolCat2 · 16/02/2025 16:26

Does anyone know if there is a tribunal date yet for the Darlington nurses?

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 16/02/2025 16:30

Twoshoesnewshoes · 16/02/2025 15:57

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles that song is absolute genius

Hi!! Thank you, I just found from searching my WhatsApp (we SO need Upton's phone!) I wrote it in 2018 so that must have been when it was deleted by MN.hopefully it will stand this time now we have been shoved into the FWR naughtycorner! it shows how long it's been going on...asking ourselves in 2018 how we got here...it's now 2025.

On the phone note Upton's cld make all the notes he wants about colleagues but not patients surely. so the patient safetyconcerns would not be on there would they?

Talkinpeace · 16/02/2025 16:31

Naomi Cunningham's hit rate is pretty amazing.

Its just so depressing that these cases keep happening and the NHS as a whole still stands by its illegal policies.

FarriersGirl · 16/02/2025 16:32

Just catching up this afternoon. Just to add a point about the issue on deadnaming and the links suggested to the name changes in the adoption process. In this day and age it is increasingly common for young people who were adopted to want trace their birth family. I can think of a several examples known to me personally so I really don't think this is the same.

mrshoho · 16/02/2025 16:34

Twoshoesnewshoes · 16/02/2025 15:57

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles that song is absolute genius

SECOND that! I loved the original but love your version even more. Can we get a MN choir recording of it!!

mumsandaunties · 16/02/2025 16:37

I believe it's in July.

I was just looking at the background of the barrister representing the nurses, and while I hope he is as effective as Ben and Naomi, I don't know he'll reach the same level of hero status with the MN vipers.

Doesn't matter one bit though does it? People are entitled to their views and opinions. Though I do suspect that quite a lot will be made in certain quarters of the nurses having Christian Concern/Pro-Life support.

NebulousDogBollocking · 16/02/2025 16:39

Does anyone remember that thread where lots of poems and songs were deleted due to mass outrage and reports from TRAs having a massive tantrum?

I wonder if that's why my wee ditty about Eddie Izzard in his pink coat in the toilet queue was deleted. And there was me thinking it was because MNHQ had considered it uncouth 😆

Boiledbeetle · 16/02/2025 16:42

Perhaps I need a Tunnocks bar. Apologies to all aficionados but I've never actually had one <ducks and runs, in the hope that this confession will be forgotten when we get to the next thread 🏃🏿‍♀️>
@BonfireLady

<Shakes head disapprovingly>

How can you have been on Mumsnet so long and still not eaten a Tunnock's bar? Of any kind! Do better Bonfire! Do better.

And to your other question on the last thread...

No.
Nope.
Definitely No.
Not happening.
Still not sorted out the crap sat in a box in connection with the other two.
Please don't make me

😱

BiologicalRobot · 16/02/2025 16:43

FFS can you lot start eating the teacakes with knives and forks, it might slow your posting down a little 😩

Very surprised to see The Express has been reported though.

guinnessguzzler · 16/02/2025 16:44

@KnottyAuty I can't believe you got flamed for not wanting adolescent boys in the women's changing rooms! That's absolutely ridiculous! There was a thread in AIBU the other day where a load of people were saying if a man has his daughters with him for swimming he should just go into the ladies with them, honestly it was wild! Why would anyone think that acceptable?!

@NotMaroonbutraspberry Just picking up on your point from the end of the last thread: If I as the nurse caring for a patient, a woman with vaginal bleeding who has asked at the point of booking in to only have women looking after her as per NC's example, become aware that DU or another like him, is planning to examine this patient It's clear this would just be impossible to deal with now. What if you don't actually know for sure that a colleague is trans? Presumably you're not allowed to ask anyone. And if you do ask you'll get a lie for an answer. You can't just discreetly look up their registration as that won't tell you anything helpful. So even if you want to do the right thing, how can you? I sincerely hope this case, and the rest coming over the summer, lead to some kind of change as the situation at the moment is just nonsense.

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles Love it and perfect for this case which, as many have commented, seems also to have a class element. I often think of the line from Mis-Shapes, 'We'll use the one thing we've got more of, that's our minds'. We will get there. Please noone tell me if Candida Doyle is a total TWAW, I think it would kill me.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/02/2025 16:45

Talkinpeace · 16/02/2025 16:31

Naomi Cunningham's hit rate is pretty amazing.

Its just so depressing that these cases keep happening and the NHS as a whole still stands by its illegal policies.

This is why I don't think they'll throw Isla Bumba under a bus. The illegal policies are the policies they have chosen to have, and the fact they're will to spend god knows how much public money on defending them shows that they're more than happy with them being implemented.

It's mind boggling!

Peregrina · 16/02/2025 16:47

I wonder if that's why my wee ditty about Eddie Izzard in his pink coat in the toilet queue was deleted. And there was me thinking it was because MNHQ had considered it uncouth

Ah but perhaps it's because you failed to call him "she"?

Just a small vignette of my own. I was in a public building the other day and there were three sets of loos - gents, ladies and a unisex one. I automatically went into the Ladies, and saw that there was a queue. So I realised I could go to the unisex one, which I did, just to speed things up.

Similarly a favourite cafe has made their loos unisex, or mixed sex if you prefer. Well, I reasoned, I don't have to use the loos while I am there.

Basically, most of us would prefer to use ones belonging to our own sex.

mrshoho · 16/02/2025 16:48

Of all the tribunals and court cases that have gone on over the years I really do believe that this one has the potential to peak the nation. Not just on twitter but in the real world.

Thinking of the Post Office scandal and how it had rolled on for decades. The public may have been aware of it from newspaper headlines, but it wasn't really until the tv dramatisation (me included) that the complete shameful situation was fully understood. I may be wishfully daydreaming and I know we've all joked about our ideal cast but really this story whatever the outcome needs to be broadcast. I can't see any tv production company with the guts for it now, but one day in the future.

Hoardasurass · 16/02/2025 16:49

Manxexile · 16/02/2025 15:44

[From previous thread, p40]

"... To succeed surely NC will focus on proving the harassment and principle of why single spaces are needed, rather than relying on the old law which others argue is out of date? For example historically the law allowed people to own slaves, and that was changed when social values rightly moved on. Or am I missing something?"

@KnottyAuty - I don't think old laws go out of date. They are either repealed or amended by Parliament, or they are clarified by judicial interpretation (ie in cases of lack of clarity the courts say what Parliament must have meant by the words they used).

AIUI the 1992 Workplace Regulations mandatory requirement for employers to provide separate changing rooms (and toilets and washing facilities) for men and women has not been repealed, amended or clarified, so the requirement still applies.

Now there may be an argument around what the terms "men" and "women" mean in the context of the regulations, but I don't think anybody has legally argued that anywhere yet. (Although the pending Supreme court decision in the FWS case might help to clarify what the terms mean).

I think I am a bit surprised that NC has not mentioned the workplace regs so far, but I presume she will in her summing up/closing argument.

(By the way - and not a criticism of you - but I'm reminded of the poster in a previous thread who complained to her HR dept that their EDI training was wrong in law and was told by HR something like: "The law is out of date. We're ahead of the law and waiting for it to catch up"!!! 😀 A good example of why you should never trust legal advice from a policeman or a HR bod!)

I would expect the workplace regulations to be brought up when questioning of IB, AW, KS et al as they were the ones who breached that regulation by giving a legally and biologically male permission to use the female facilities. When NC asked both DU about them the judge said that those questions were for R1 witnesses

Cismyfatarse · 16/02/2025 16:49

I woke up in the night and decided that, for my next career, I want to be a tabloid headline writer. For this story I am going with:

NHS Fife: a cock and ball story.

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