NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

I only got it today. I also thought that it was summat to do with sailing.

Well I had a big emotional panic several threads ago when in response to something I posted about nauticant, somebody picked up on the ..Cockney version, shall we say.

I was horrified and felt really bad because I was afraid nauticant would think that I had done it intentionally - I was genuinely upset and even thought of DMing nauticant to apologise and say that it wasn't at all my intention to leave her username open to misuse like that..

Somebody wise over in the Bluestocking told me to chill so I did.

If I find that in fact it is a pun after all I'm going to feel like a right eejit!🙄

I am just catching up from the previous thread. This was about the special pleading required for Trans identifying males:

This is the easiest to deal with by far. Looking at the census data for Scotland from 2022 (who didn't have a whoopsie with their questions) we can see that across the total population, trans folk are 1 in 230 people.
And for under 35s it is 1 in 95 which is a lot higher than even I expected!

How many of these have undergone surgery? It is most certainly not one in every 230 or 1 in 95. So they are still Men, in the case of TWs.

How many people are women? Yes that's right it's one in two.

'Step in time, step in time, come on mateys, step in time!'

I refuse to believe our thread starter isn't named after an insect with a love of sailing. You lot should all wash your mouths out! 🧼

I think it might be best to draw a discreet veil over the origins of my username.

I will be making no further statements about this matter.

Thank you in advance for respecting my wishes at this difficult time.

Thoughts and prayers, nauticant 😁

I'm actually surprised the figures are as high as those.
What do we reckon their people who didn't understand the question or were deliberately being daft when they were ticking boxes.

A nauticat is a very pretty sailing boat. So I always think of that.

I missed out the c and read it as naughty aunt.

Apparently the 1 in 2 thing doesn’t cut it. i think it’s because we are the cruel majority who are oppressing the very teeny tiny number of trans people.

So the 1 in 95 figure needs to be wheeled out at all opportunities because even for mathsphobes it’s really the opposite of vanishingly small… it’s at a level that needs proper facilities and not a mend and make do attitude…. Bring on the third spaces!

These are the Scottish 2022 Census figures where their questions were considered more comprehensible. Here are the bands by age that I worked out from the base data. While it is Scottish data, I think we can assume it might reasonably extrapolate across the rest of the UK...

Thanks @KnottyAuty we can rely on you for helpful data analysis

1 in 70 of the 15 - 24 age range and 1 in 909 of the 65 + age range, suggests to me that this is little more than a fashion, because I doubt whether people change so significantly as they age.

I am in the latter age group - I remember my teen age and early twenties years very well still and remember how awkward many of us were at that age, but I can't think of anyone who said they were trans. It just wasn't a thing.

I spotted it first time I read it; but I thought I was just being inappropriate.

😬Sorry!

Eta Although...is there really anything approaching a cockney accent in Mary Poppins?

If Dick van Dyke wasn’t an international treasure, I’d be having a proper muse about his particular name tbh.

It definitely seems like a fashion.
Lots of young people aren't happy with their bodies in the 80s and 90s their were plenty with anorexia and bulimia

I also suspect there are a fair number of males for whom trans is a fetish

I might be a frightful old cynic, but I think a lot of the Scottish Trans Young Team are just Spicy Straights fitting in

Think I might join you on the frightful old cynic bench.

Budge up. I've brought snacks and I'll share.

Ta! Mine’s a caramel wafer please.

Difficult to know isn’t it? The older age bands would have been born around the time where being gay was decriminalised. My age group 45-64 - I remember being bullied in the 1980s because classmates decided I was gay (I just found the boys in my class unpleasant and some of them threateningly over-sexualised) so had rejected them. Obviously I had to be gay rather than impervious to their charms 🙄 Anyway it certainly wasn’t a tolerant environment in my part of the UK. Attitudes have obviously changed massively and will continue to. I don’t think gender identity will completely die out. So for the next 20 years or so I imagine the rates will increase as the. 1 in 70 becomes more prevalent in the older age bands. Then as it becomes mainstream and boring it will drop off

When I was still teaching, the trans kids' classmates were more invested in the transition than they were...

I only knew trans identified girls. (4 in total, in the classroom.) One was 'questioning', one was stealth. The other two associated with other girls and used the girls' facilities.

I don't know what happened to the 'questioning' girl, but one of the others detransistioned at school and the other two detransitioned after they left. There's no doubt in my mind that peer pressure (and looking 'cool', perhaps) had a great deal to do with it.

I’m about the same age as Peregrina and lived a very alternative lifestyle in the 1970s, both in the UK and all over Europe. Even then I only met one person who considered himself transsexual (was saving up for the surgery), and that was back in England and he wasn’t part of the counterculture at all.
Lots of gender non conforming people (as we would say now), lots of gay and lesbian people, a few cross-dressers, quite a few sex workers…no trans people. Not even on the radar, except in the rather newfangled and niche newspaper colour supplements (Jan Morris was a particular pet of these).