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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

1000 replies

nauticant · 15/05/2025 22:36

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

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DreamingofBrie · 24/05/2025 17:35

@igmum (sorry, lost ypur quote when replying!) She writes mainly about women, her latest book "Dream Count" is about the intertwined lives of four Nigerian women. Her TEDTalk, "We Should all be Feminists" is pretty well known, and she has terfy views too. I find her writing really compelling.

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Needspaceforlego · 25/05/2025 07:43

Edinburgh Rape crisis really don't like women do they?
Makes you wonder who is really pulling the strings.

Enough4me · 25/05/2025 09:58

Needspaceforlego · 25/05/2025 07:43

Edinburgh Rape crisis really don't like women do they?
Makes you wonder who is really pulling the strings.

Probably someone with a child with dysphoria. They will have to loudly push the agenda as they lied to their child. Or someone linked a biased group (anti women) like Stonewall?

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2025 11:06

Thank you for that @Waitwhat23 one thing that leaps out to me is that they have to now refer victims to Biera's place. I wonder if they are?

borntobequiet · 25/05/2025 11:16

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2025 11:06

Thank you for that @Waitwhat23 one thing that leaps out to me is that they have to now refer victims to Biera's place. I wonder if they are?

The report says that they should “give consideration” to this, which doesn’t sound very promising. Mostly it looks like an exercise to make sure that if they went to court again, they wouldn’t be vulnerable on procedural and policy issues.
They are still full on TWAW, it appears.

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2025 11:24

I read page 26 which has the recommendations as slightly more directive about referring to other support. But I may just be reading it hoping they have seen sense

Actually having met at least one of their trustees I suspect they will never change sadly

borntobequiet · 25/05/2025 11:33

I did rather skim it! It’s a lot for a Sunday morning.

I decided a while ago that these sort of leopards are very reluctant to find a new set of spots, so I skimmed it rather cynically.

Waitwhat23 · 25/05/2025 11:33

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2025 11:06

Thank you for that @Waitwhat23 one thing that leaps out to me is that they have to now refer victims to Biera's place. I wonder if they are?

One feels it might be a grudgingly muttered, vague reference to 'the other place' and at a push, a crumbled dog eared leaflet stuffed into someone's hand.

Must be hard for them to talk over the bile rising in their throat at the idea of women actually having a single sex option. The very idea.

guinnessguzzler · 25/05/2025 12:11

@Waitwhat23 Thanks for sharing the report as I don't think I'd actually seen it yet. It would be interesting to know whether their referral levels drop at all now women have an option to go elsewhere.

Joolsin · 25/05/2025 14:48

Thanks for linking the report, @Waitwhat23 - I think Appendix 2, pages 49-51, the timeline of events, is particularly interesting. There's a literal revolving-door of trustees being appointed and resigning.

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2025 15:26

@Joolsin that became obvious at the time of the tribunal. All the remaining trustees were young women with almost no experience - which made it very easy for MW to do as he wished. That report is shocking in terms of how much was kept from the Board and how basic procedures were just ignored

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 25/05/2025 15:36

Thanks, @nauticant .

Waitwhat23 · 25/05/2025 15:45

Joolsin · 25/05/2025 14:48

Thanks for linking the report, @Waitwhat23 - I think Appendix 2, pages 49-51, the timeline of events, is particularly interesting. There's a literal revolving-door of trustees being appointed and resigning.

And the revolving door continues through Scotland's 3rd sector organisations - the same names just pop in and out of each, apparently in turn.

IDareSay · 28/05/2025 10:48

"Scotland’s Information Commissioner has found NHS Fife mishandled FOI requests over the cost of the Sandie Peggie tribunal after it failed to even check whether it held the information."

"NHS Fife has now been ordered to carry out proper searches and issue revised review decisions by 14 July 2025.
Failure to comply could see the matter referred to the Court of Session."

archive.ph/rcv4p

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/05/2025 10:49

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25195924.nhs-fife-rebuked-watchdog-sandie-peggie-foi-failures/?ref=twtrec

'Scotland’s Information Commissioner has found NHS Fife mishandled FOI requests over the cost of the Sandie Peggie tribunal after it failed to even check whether it held the information.

The watchdog has ordered the beleaguered health board to carry out fresh reviews.

In a scathing decision, David Hamilton said he was “frustrated” by the board’s handling of the requests, accusing NHS Fife of causing unnecessary delays.

The case centres on requests submitted by three applicants — including The Herald — seeking details of costs incurred by NHS Fife in the case taken by Ms Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.
NHS Fife refused to release the information and rejected an initial appeal, prompting an application to the Commissioner.

In his investigation, Mr Hamilton found that the board did not appear to have undertaken any searches in response to the request for information.

Instead, the board had sought figures from its legal advisers at the Central Legal Office (CLO). Those figures were obtained only after The Herald and others had made requests for a review.

The Commissioner said he "cannot... be satisfied that the Authority did not hold any information falling within the scope of the requests at the date it received them. Even
allowing for whatever relevant arrangements it may have with the CLO, he cannot accept the Authority reaching a conclusion on what it holds, in the circumstances, wholly without recourse to its own records."

This failure, he added, led to an “unnecessary delay [that] hampers the applicants with their information rights and reflects poorly on the Authority.”

He also rejected NHS Fife’s arguments for withholding the later-obtained data.

The board had claimed that disclosure would harm commercial interests or jeopardise health and safety, and that the information was personal data.

Mr Hamilton dismissed these arguments and noted that legal fees paid by a public body were not inherently private.

He further criticised the board for failing to inform applicants that its legal costs were covered by an indemnity scheme, which limits public spending in such cases.

NHS Fife has now been ordered to carry out proper searches and issue revised review decisions by 14 July 2025.

Failure to comply could see the matter referred to the Court of Session'.

NHS Fife rebuked by watchdog over Sandie Peggie FOI failures

Scotland’s Information Commissioner has ordered NHS Fife to re-review FOI requests after failings in transparency over costs of a high-profile…

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25195924.nhs-fife-rebuked-watchdog-sandie-peggie-foi-failures?ref=twtrec

orangegato · 28/05/2025 10:54

Wait till they get a bill for Sandie’s. I can’t wait.

There should be some sort of recourse for the taxpayer in all this, the fuckwits that took it this far should be held personally liable.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 28/05/2025 11:06

The board had claimed that disclosure would harm commercial interests or jeopardise health and safety, and that the information was personal data. Mr Hamilton dismissed these arguments

While this is clearly nonsense that can be dismissed without further examination, I would love to have seen them made to explain their reasoning.

mrshoho · 28/05/2025 11:10

orangegato · 28/05/2025 10:54

Wait till they get a bill for Sandie’s. I can’t wait.

There should be some sort of recourse for the taxpayer in all this, the fuckwits that took it this far should be held personally liable.

There really should but unfortunately CEOs and board members of NHS trusts appear to be untouchable. They often walk away from almighty fuck ups straight into a similar role. Actually this is not unique to NHS Trusts either.

Hoardasurass · 28/05/2025 14:09

orangegato · 28/05/2025 10:54

Wait till they get a bill for Sandie’s. I can’t wait.

There should be some sort of recourse for the taxpayer in all this, the fuckwits that took it this far should be held personally liable.

I think that the board and all named defendants including the DIE lead should be forced to pay all legal and compensation costs themselves even if it means cashing in their pensions and selling their homes

orangegato · 28/05/2025 15:08

Hoardasurass · 28/05/2025 14:09

I think that the board and all named defendants including the DIE lead should be forced to pay all legal and compensation costs themselves even if it means cashing in their pensions and selling their homes

If there was a precedent for that I suspect there would be miraculously fewer court cases. People hanging onto their money will suddenly be more important than the gender agenda. Fun and games when it’s taxpayers innit.

KnottyAuty · 28/05/2025 15:21

Hoardasurass · 28/05/2025 14:09

I think that the board and all named defendants including the DIE lead should be forced to pay all legal and compensation costs themselves even if it means cashing in their pensions and selling their homes

The named Respondents are jointly and severally liable for ET awards. Dr Upton is already on the hook. Soon we will find out if Kate Searle is added as an over enthusiastic enabler…. If they add R3 they get 28 days to prepare so I’d have thought this was decided by now. Has this been kept quiet in advance of the hearing to prevent speculation and media interference?

anyolddinosaur · 28/05/2025 16:18

Said before that I dont think it's usual to hear anything about such things before they come back to court. But I'm not a lawyer so maybe @prh47bridge can cast some light on this.

prh47bridge · 28/05/2025 16:34

anyolddinosaur · 28/05/2025 16:18

Said before that I dont think it's usual to hear anything about such things before they come back to court. But I'm not a lawyer so maybe @prh47bridge can cast some light on this.

I agree that we won't find out about KS or Upton's phone until the hearing in July unless one of the participants chooses to tell us. Employment tribunals generally only publish the final judgement in a case.

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