NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Be careful when talking about 'invisible disabilities' .The valkyries might be listening and could well descend

I anticipate media coverage will ramp up this coming week, TRA meltdowns to match, goady-fuckers-a-go-go and hundreds of earnest queries about who has secured access, where details have been sent and where to follow if you don’t have access. A thread #29 by kick-off on Wednesday is not beyond the realms of possibility.

(Thanks for the concern and advice about my workplace. I know what you’re all saying, but you’d need to see my place of work to believe it).

Has anyone had a reply with links from the ET to enable them to view?

If not, does anyone else feel that they are only paying lip service to open justice by refusing to give those who will be admitted reasonable advance warning? Especially as they are requesting early log ins etc?

I applied but cannot now guarantee to keep potential working days free with no information to how likely I am to get a link. Surely most applicant were in the same position?

If links do come through on say Tuesday evening and then lots of people have made other plans, they can then refuse to recycle those links and have v few people watching and claim they've been allowing open justice.

Smells fishy to me.

I have no doubt that it all goes back to ScotGov.
How else can NHS, Prisons, Schools, and Collages all grt it wrong?

Have Stonewall not been receiving money from ScotGov?
Surely it's the ScotGov who are responsible for ensuring any 'legal' training Stonewall give is actually correct?

Are ScotGov going to put a claim in against Stonewall for getting it wrong?
I'll get the 🍿 ready for that case if it ever comes.

@Deadcog We believe you - and JKR's fund is there to support you when you cant stand it any more. But as your workplace appears to be totally captured (may be some lying to keep their job) you'll need very good proof. So make sure you have it for when you are managed out or decide to leave.

Thanks everyone for your contributions. Mostly lurking due to health issues. I really appreciate the commentary. Sandie has been through so much and for so long, she really is a remarkable woman.
Edited to add support for Deadcog, please get some legal advice and keep a record of all events, dates, witnesses etc.

Michael Foran on Times radio this morning.

About 20 minutes from end of show

https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1944335245781696861?t=eDUeysJP0xRhiFowuoaaXg&s=19

It was @Deadcog and I completely agree with you. Barring some context that is beyond my imagination that is an outrageous thing to say to someone.

Eta oops, should read to the end of the thread but I'll take the opportunity to ❤️ @Deadcog and @nauticant and mourn the laugh emoji.

I haven't applied for access as I won't be available all the time. I'm looking forward to the combined contributions of those who do get access, plus of course the wonderful Tribunal Tweets,to keep me up-to-date. Thank goodness the weather should be cooler by then.

Generally sacked NHS CEOs go on to more senior jobs, often in bigger trusts.

It’s exactly that I think with deception - if a woman has requested same sex care then a transwoman doctor/nurse should only attend them if it’s an emergency or no female staff available for the thing they need - so the same circumstances where the patient might end up being treated by any other male dr/nurse. It should be regarded as the same. The transwoman staff member needs to accept that they are male and should self exclude from that patient’s care just as any other male staff member would unless it can’t be avoided. In a situation where the patient has no preference for same sex care, being treated by a transwoman is not an issue.

That said if I was being treated by someone who thought biological sex was nothing but an irrelevant “nebulous dog whistle” I would have serious reservations about their medical knowledge.

After listening to that clip by Michael Foran, can any of the legal commentators on here answer a question please. Should NHS Fife not have been advised by their legal team that they need to conclude their disciplinary investigation and process BEFORE the tribunal started otherwise they compromise one of those?

I'm not sure to what extent SP's solicitors forced the delay in the disciplinary hearing. And, as Michael Foran says, if they had run a different defence, having the disciplinary process still ongoing at the time of the tribunal wouldn't have been an issue. The problem is mounting a defence that attempts to brand SP as a bigot, dragging in arguments that really don't hold water (e.g. she stayed at a Trump hotel therefore she is a Trump supporter), and essentially says she is guilty of the things they are accusing her of in the disciplinary. That is evidence that they have prejudged the disciplinary case. They have put themselves in an impossible position. We have no idea whether they have done so by failing to take legal advice, ignoring legal advice or listening to poor legal advice. Given that they are represented by a barrister who is clearly captured and fully bought into the TWAW case and has a history of losing cases concerning gender ideology, it wouldn't surprise me if her advice supported their actions.

The Trump hotel thing - didn't she get a discount through her union ? I'm sure she won't have been the only NHS staff to stay there.

I suspect links to the hearing will go out tomorrow. I applied and haven't heard yet. If I don't get in I'll be here depending on you lot and your hysterical (as in exceedingly amusing) commentary.

I'm especially looking forward to Isla Bumba.

I think they’re cutting it fine sending out the links tomorrow morning.

Thanks for this. I can't see this on its own thread which it probably deserves.

Article is fascinating.

It goes through saying how all the trans groups say she's anti trans because she's done x, y and z for women.

Then says the Select Committee are opposing her appointment

Note this paragraph though:
Her appointment has now been opposed by the women and equalities select committee and the joint committee on human rights. In a joint letter to Bridget Phillipson, the education secretary and minister for women and equalities, they said Stephenson lacked sufficient experience of running a big organisation and questioned her experience in dealing with issues of race. The letter does not mention her position on trans issues, but a source involved in the process said that it was a factor in the decision.

So they are too gutless to even mention it even though it was a factor in decision making.

The elephant in the room is that they haven't got grounds to do so precisely because she's in line with the SC ruling and they aren't.

So they have to use other issues to try and block her appointment. That's pretty vexatious.

They then force team on race, because they aren't getting their own way on sex.

It's quite the tell.

Exactly.
Turnberry has been a long established luxury venue, long before Trump got involved.

Ah, it's actually better than that.

Discounted stays at the Turnberry Hotel are offered as part of the NHS staff benefits scheme.

https://www.nhsstaffbenefits.co.uk/deal/turnberry-stays-nhs-discount

It’s utterly ridiculous.

You’d have thought someone at NHS Fife or the NHS central legal office could have told JR she couldn’t use that. It’s been on the NHS discount benefits for years!

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

End of thread